Gustavo Razzetti on What Makes a Hybrid Team Successful

Please subscribe via the Podcast links above

How are you evolving with the shifting dynamics of workplace culture and hybrid work environments?

In this episode, Gustavo Razzetti, author and CEO at Fearless Culture, a culture design firm, shares his revolutionary insights into fostering a thriving company culture in the era of hybrid work.

This episode is a treasure trove for leaders aiming to navigate the complexities of today's work culture. We dissect the essence of creating spaces that not only adapt to the hybrid work model but excel within it, offering strategies for seamless integration and sustained engagement.

During the conversation, Gustavo explores the critical role of clear communication, the challenges of maintaining connection in dispersed teams, and strategies for building an inclusive culture that values every voice. Learn how adjusting leadership styles to be more empathetic and understanding can significantly impact team dynamics and overall productivity.

Delve into this discussion on the future of workspaces, where Gustavo shares his expert predictions and the necessary shifts in mindset to stay ahead. Beyond theory, we look to practical applications within renowned companies like Spotify, Airbnb, and Allstate, extracting lessons from their successful hybrid model implementations. 

Join us for an inspiring session and discover how to leverage the unique opportunities that hybrid working presents, ensuring your team not only adapts but thrives.

And remember to follow us on our social media channels and share the podcast with colleagues and friends.

Links

Connect with Gustavo on LinkedIn 

Connect with Gustavo on Substack 

Follow

Leading People on LinkedIn

Leading People on X (Twitter)

Leading People on FaceBook

Connect with Gerry

Website

LinkedIn

Wide Circle

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to episode 51 of Leading People with me, Gerry Murray. This episode is brought to you by Wide Circle, helping you make better talent decisions. To learn more, visit widecircleeu. That's W-I-D-E-C-I-R-C-L-E dot E-U. C-i-r-c-l-e dot E-U. How can we adapt to the ever-evolving world of work and what makes a hybrid work model successful, and how can teams navigate this new terrain to foster innovation and productivity? In today's episode, we delve into these pressing questions with Gustavo Rossetti, a thought leader in organizational culture and the author of Remote, Not Distant. Gustavo brings his extensive experience and unique insights into how companies can thrive in a hybrid workplace, blending the physical and digital to create a culture of inclusivity, flexibility and shared success. As we explore the shift from traditional office spaces to dynamic hybrid environments, we uncover the skills, strategies and mindsets essential for both leaders and teams. Join us for a conversation that promises not only to answer these questions, but also to challenge our perceptions of the modern workplace and inspire new ways of working together. So let's dive right in. Gustavo Rossetti, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Hi, Gerry, very excited to be here so, um, I came across your book a few months back and I thought this is truly a topic worth featuring on leading people, so I really wanted to get you on the show and but before we start talking about the book because I'm sure a lot of our listeners would like to hear more about your book before they go out and buy it, hopefully um, how did you get here to where you are today? What sort of whether, what sort of personal place or an event maybe stands out in your mind on your journey to where you are? And or were there some epiphany moments, like where you had these aha moments and? And it brought you into this world, particularly of culture, because I know you do a lot of work in that area. So what's the background?

Speaker 2: 2:28

yeah, my background basically started in marketing, communications, advertising, then moving to or expanded into the innovation field and I think that epiphany maybe it's not one moment, but it's the accumulative of different moments. Frustration, basically, in which I saw, saw a lot of ideas never saw the light of day, they basically were dead on arrival. And then I realized it wasn't about the idea, it wasn't about the talent, it was basically the culture of the organization wasn't ready for those ideas. So people were excited, but the system, the decision making in methods, the psychological safety of the company, the leadership style, was not there. So I started pivoting and and another aha moment was I went to a program at Stanford's d school. I was selected, likely among four global leaders, to go through a three-month course on change leadership and I learned a lot of tools and tricks and methods and basically I'd say, well, this is what I want to do next and I quit my 20 plus career job and I started working on this field of culture.

Speaker 1: 3:36

And how long ago was that?

Speaker 2: 3:39

Formally. I mean, there was a preparation time that was kind of two years, but now full time I would say six, seven years now. Okay, very good.

Speaker 1: 3:52

So the reason you're here is because of the book. Primarily, I wanted to expand upon your research into this area and also to share with our listeners some of the things you've discovered, because this is not just a topic. This is a moving topic. This is a topic that's continuously evolving. So the book is called Remote, not Distant Design a company culture that will help you thrive in a hybrid workplace. So lots great words in there. Um, that people are familiar with this last couple of years. What was your purpose in writing this book, gustavo?

Speaker 2: 4:32

great question and, to be honest with the audience, I started writing a book on culture and then the pandemic hit and things started like switching. So basically, it's still a book about culture, but through the lens of hybrid. There are books about a remote work that are fully about how to operate, operationalize the work, like uh policies, a communication and so on and this book addresses that, but through a bigger lens, which is the culture. So people are talking about how many days at the office, policies, but they're missing the biggest element, which is how we build psychological safety, how we give each other feedback, what's the purpose? I mean, how can you discuss how many days at the office if you don't know exactly how you're going to collaborate? Or, most importantly, why are you trying to achieve together as a team? So that's basically what drove me Curiosity, a lot of of.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Even now, people are still stuck in this conversation that the office versus remote, seeing this as a in binary terms. Rather than understanding that it's. What are you trying to achieve? What's it? Try to what's the type of work that you're trying to accomplish and then build the model and not the other way around okay, and these are.

Speaker 1: 5:45

These are these are great already, great insights and and great openers for this conversation, and maybe we, just looking at the title of the book, maybe, maybe we could explore how do you define hybrid then? What's your working definition of hybrid so that we get that distinction clear for people in their minds, so they know what you're referencing absolutely?

Speaker 2: 6:08

first of all, I like to clarify. I don't like the term hybrid, but that's the only word that we have. You know that it. Take, for example, the toyota prius. It's like a. It's not an electric car that's cool and energy efficient. It's not a gas that you get speed. How so? Hybrid could be the worst or the best of both worlds. It all depends on how we manage.

Speaker 2: 6:29

For sure, hybrid is not this rigid approach of three days at the office from home or the other way around. Whatever the model is. That's one of the many ways that we can express hybrid. The most important about hybrid is flexibility can express hybrid. The most important about hybrid, it's flexibility. It's about allowing people not only the freedom to choose where they want to work from, but actually how and where. So it's not the location, but also understanding that people, based on their family compositions, their personal preferences, how their brain operates, they want to do work in different moments. Some people are early risers. Some people, like me, like to work late at night, past midnight, especially when I'm writing, and that's okay. But of course, it's also about reconciling personal preferences with team needs, of also finding common ground. That's going to get the work get done in a timely and good quality manner. So for me, it's about that freedom that, instead of following a typical 9-to-5 structure, we have different models in which each team can design their own methods, their own rhythm.

Speaker 1: 7:42

And that itself. You say each team designs their own methods and therefore I think, if I'm listening correctly, um, I was. I'm going to relate it to something I was reading um a great book. Uh, there the other day I actually have it behind me from um barbara kellerman, on um the end of leadership, and one of the things she was pointing out in her book is that leadership requires followership, you know, and actually her point was that followers need to feel part of it and leaders need to become more collaborative to bring their followers with them.

Speaker 1: 8:23

And you alluded to that that each team designs, because there's this expectation in some organizations that the manager will make the decision which, if I'm hearing correctly, you're saying maybe that's not quite the way these things might evolve. Can you expand a bit on that, your statement in which each team designs the work, the work flows? Definitely, enjoying the insights and inspiration. Make sure to catch every episode by subscribing to leading people on your favorite podcast platform and please take a moment to rate us. Your feedback makes all the difference. Remember to follow us on our social media channels and join our linkedin group for more content and connection with like-minded professionals.

Speaker 2: 9:17

Stay connected, stay informed and let's grow together most of the conversations that we're seeing on the media, it's about the CEO trying to define or even impose a model, and mostly that's based on their personal preferences. I mean, many leaders were raised in an office and that's the only world they know to lead from, a place of power and visibility, and that's how they want to span. The point is, we need to delegate that decision into teams, for two reasons First, because in this new reality of work, you cannot have a one-size-fits-all model. But second, each team has different dynamics. So let me give you an example.

Speaker 2: 10:02

When Slack started adopting the hybrid model, they realized that, for example, when it comes to how frequent do we want to get together, well, the sales team want to meet with each other very frequently because they are more social, they are very aggressive, they are very competitive, they want to show to their colleagues am I, I'm doing better. But also when it comes to coaching younger professionals, they are going to learn more from visibility, from being close to those sales executive. However, other areas of the company, because of the nature of their work, they don't need to see themselves each other. So, technology, yeah, we get together, we agree on certain parameters and then boom, everyone goes to their corner. We code and we keep in touch, and that's it. So that's basically the main message let the team and let the work that each team has to do decide how they work, and not a rigid schedule force how they work okay, so so that sparks another thought in my head.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Um, I'm curious if you thought about this. Maybe some of our listeners are saying I also have this thought and what skills would a team of that like that need to be able to define their hybrid work?

Speaker 2: 11:23

first and this is something that people need to learn how to deal with is freedom right. People demand a lot of freedom, a lot of space to make decisions, but not everyone's ready for that. So you know, when they say, okay, guys, it's on you. And then people, well, you know what? So it takes time for teams to basically work in an autonomous environment where they have freedom. But with freedom comes accountability, so they also need to. The point is okay, I'm as a leader, I'm going to give you the freedom to decide how you want to work, but we need to agree what are the goals, what are the outcomes, and then see you in a month from now and you make sure that you have you reach or achieve those goals. So it requires a lot of maturity in order for people to make those decisions.

Speaker 1: 12:11

And in terms of looking at the generational aspect of this, then, have you seen any patterns, or what patterns are you seeing in terms of the ease with which some of the generations are able to adapt to this idea, that they collectively figure it out Coming up? Next, we dive into the challenges and key strategies for successfully implementing a hybrid work model. Gustavo shares invaluable insights on avoiding common pitfalls and fostering a culture that supports flexibility and inclusivity. Stay tuned as we unlock the secrets to thriving in a hybrid work environment.

Speaker 2: 13:00

Yeah, sure, I'm not even a fan, but not a supporter of the generational lens. It provides some input, but this idea that millennials, gen Z, work in a different manner it's worth putting people in boxes. There are many other elements that affect how people work has to do with their personalities. So people that are more extroverted versus introverted minorities tend to feel safer working remotely than in office because of microaggressions. People with families have different. For example, people that live alone. They tend to have more preference to be more frequently at the office because they need to socialize.

Speaker 2: 13:39

If you work, if you live in one studio apartment in New York, so probably you don't have a room, while people that have a bigger house, they have more comfort to work from. So there are many variables that affect that. For example, yes, we know that younger people have a preference to work more flexible. They're liking this idea. They can move to anywhere, actually explore the world. But people my age, mid-50s they are also the segment that are much more into the hybrid model as well. The people that are beyond the 60s, those don't don't want it, but that's more of a rather than a generation, more of an educational and expertise or skills that they like to do that yeah, and and I suppose it's um.

Speaker 1: 14:27

It's just one of those um elements that are often cited, this generational thing, and you talked about um, how, when and where earlier. You remind me of the um. One of the early people to publish some research on hybrid was linda, professor linda gratton at london business school in may of 2021. So we were really all sort of one year into this pandemic and kind of finding our way, and she wrote this article how to do hybrid. Right, when she used two very interesting things in her analysis.

Speaker 1: 14:58

She talked about time and place as either constrained or unconstrained on both dimensions, and she said the typical office of the past was time bound, time constrained and, uh, fixed place. You know type of place, constrained. And so that in those early days started to open people's mind to thinking about it. And and one of the things she was trying to make as well I think you're also emphasizing this is it depends on a lot of other factors, as you just outlined about the type of work that needs to be done the, the, the need for interaction to get that work done, the. Not everybody likes working from home. It seems that some people say it's a privilege. Not everybody's domestic circumstances or living conditions make it easy for them to work from home, and that, and so what are some of the key challenges that companies face when transitioning to a hybrid work model?

Speaker 2: 15:53

yeah, first of all, building on what the model you just mentioned time and place I think that they are still thinking in a constrained approach. So companies are trying to recreate the nine to five right, a rigid model. So nine to five was created because people were working too many hours, so the government wanted to limit how many hours people would work. And that was how was the nine to five created? In today's world, we know that people are working more than that, and I mentioned flexibility. So for me, there are two elements that we need to consider.

Speaker 2: 16:27

First, collaboration is not always a team sport, right? Sometimes collaboration needs to happen at the solo. So, yeah, we align in goals, we align and we divide and conquer who's going to do what? But then, at some point, we also need to do some deep work on our own. So the idea that we all need to be in the same place doesn't matter, because if I'm working on writing a report or a presentation, I don't need to interact with you. Doesn't matter at what time or where I do it. So that comes to these asynchronous and synchronous.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Not all collaboration needs to happen in real time. Actually, a vast majority should be at our own time, so asynchronous and there are very few moments in which it really makes sense that we get together. So for me, there are different what I call collaboration modes based on that. So there are deep work that needs to happen in real time together with other people. There's deep work that you need to do on your own. There's a more superficial collaboration that can happen in real time, but also a lot of collaboration that's very shallow, like, for example, emails, slack messages that should happen in a synchronous or in everyone's time and that's what's very important to codify. What are the expectations? Talking about challenges, if you don't clarify what's the time frame that I have to return your call, your slack message, or answer a text or answer an email, then what's the expectation between emails, between sorry leaders that expect immediate response and people that are working on something else collide. So having those norms, shared norms among team members, is critical to basically shift also into this new world.

Speaker 1: 18:11

What is your experience of expectation setting in organizations? How good are people at setting? I mean, you mentioned earlier a lot of it depends on what the outcomes and goals are of a particular unit let's call them a unit of workers. How good are I mean? Obviously we start often with the managers on this one how good are they at actually being able to set clear expectations? Because if you don't have clear expectations, you don't have clear standards. People don't know what's expected. They don't know how to measure themselves against where they're at versus where they need to be.

Speaker 2: 18:48

Sure, I work with a lot of companies and also the research I did for my book, so what I can share is what are the key tensions that teams are experiencing? One is changing priorities and of course the workplace and businesses are very dynamic and priorities might change. But what people are complaining a lot is that leaders are changing priorities almost on a daily, weekly basis. So it's more of a reaction to a board meeting, to a meeting with your executive team. So it feels that rather than having a clear strategy, they are making it up on the go, and that frustrates people, because what tomorrow was urgent, now it doesn't matter at all. So that frustrates people how they manage their time. Then goals we move from companies that have maybe one, two goals to an extensive list of kpis that we're measuring so many things that people are confused. Really, what are the key variables? What really matters so when? The point that everything can be measured doesn't mean that everything should be measured and tracked. So those are things that need to be confused.

Speaker 1: 19:54

There are confusing, sorry for for people okay, so let's, let's take the other part of the, the book, the subtitle of the book, which is the concept, this whole idea of culture, because, as you say, that's where you went into that field after your own experience. You were starting off writing about culture and then this whole new dimension kicks in because of the pandemic. So how can companies maintain their company culture in a hybrid work environment?

Speaker 2: 20:27

The point is, more than maintain, I would say evolve. And I'm not trying to correct here, but I'm trying to sometimes what I ask clients when they say I want to keep the culture. So you say, well, what elements of the culture? Because if one thing was really clear through a lens of the pandemic, that many company cultures were broken right. So when people say my culture is suffering, basically what happened is that the pandemic and working remotely accelerated or actually amplified lots of issues that were already there.

Speaker 2: 20:57

So we're blaming the remote work, but remote work is just a way of doing things. I mean, there are global teams that have been working in hybrid or remote arrangement for decades and no one said anything about it and they're very successful. So what exercise we do with teams is to understand what were the things that were working and not before the pandemic, what were the things that worked and didn't work during the pandemic, and use those to design that evolution of your culture. What are the elements that we want to preserve, what are the elements that we want to add, but also what things do we want to get rid of that never serve us and now for sure, are not helping us and now for sure, are not helping us.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Yeah, and one factor that you've mentioned once already and I'm sure Amy Edmondson is quite busy these days and this whole concept of psychological safety was one of those. You know, it was the wound beneath the surface that often popped his head up. Would you like to just explain a little bit, first of all for our listeners who may not know, although the term has been quite used recently. You know how to understand psychological safety. And then, what sorts of advice or insights or tips do you have from your work around how to go about building it? Because that's one of those foundation elements, that's one that's like the basement in your house. It's kind of, you know, it may not be visible to everybody, but if it's not there, maybe the house doesn't, or the foundation of your house it doesn't always stand, perhaps. So psychological safety.

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah, that's. I mean, it's amazing the way you put it because that uses exactly that same metaphor. So the structure of the house, the foundation, it's invisible until you start to see the cracks on the wall and that's too late because you haven't invested enough money or time or materials on that. Psychological safety the formal definition is, they believe. So it's a perception that my team it's safe for interpersonal risk. So I can take risks such as bring my whole self to work, I can share my ideas in the open, I can ask questions, I can ask for help or even challenge my manager or my colleagues, and it's not only okay but actually encouraged that I think differently. So the team feels safe. One thing that Amy Edmondson and many other experts and my own research shows is this happens in pockets within the organization. That's why we talk about the team is safe, because I can feel safe within my marketing or my product management or IT team. But that doesn't mean many other areas of the organization feel exactly the same. And also one thing that's important it's collective. It's like collective trust. Trust happens between two people.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Psychological safety is something that the entire team provides, so we all make it happen. It's not just a leader's responsibility. The leader can do a lot of things. They can model it, but if the team members don't contribute to it, it's like a safety net that people are holding. So when I take the leap, it's going to be safe for me to take that risk. So how can we do it? It's about modeling participation. We know that. For example, turn-taking, making sure that each team member has their chance to speak up. It's critical. We always say that leaders should always go last to make sure they don't influence people with their own ideas. However, there are exceptions. When we want to model a risk taking, when we want to model vulnerability for example, acknowledging our own mistakes we would like the leaders to be the first to talk, so they basically create that environment.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Silence it's also a very important kind of aspect. Some people need to think before they talk, so we also need to provide silence for people to reflect before they share their answers. So brainstorming in silence that's always good. Another element is, many times, leaders ask a question and people don't say anything and they assume that everyone's on board. And we need to. I always say tell my clients silence means disagreement, not agreement. When people are not saying yes, it's because either they're thinking or they're not in, so assume that when they're silent, it's they're not on board, rather than the contrary, which is what we usually do. Another thing that's interesting is working in small groups, so breakout rooms. When you need to have tough conversations, it's better to pair people in duos, let them talk about it, then merge those two groups and have smaller groups before you share in the open. That builds that muscle muscle, that psychological safety muscle for people to feel comfortable to speak up in front of everyone yeah, I think that's really excellent because, like many of these terms, there's a sort of generalized blanket view.

Speaker 1: 25:47

The terms are thrown out there and you've now elegantly and eloquently taken it and sort of said, hey, let's look at what, what the building blocks like. Taking your house analogy, you know you're actually looking at not just building a foundation, but what are the materials that go into that foundation to make it a strong foundation. By the way, when I was a young guy you're coming in from chicago today as a young guy I worked on building sites in chicago when I was a student, so I got first, first, first-hand experience of of how foundations got built and that you know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 26:22

I'm not in that profession anymore. I think the others understood it better than me. But anyway, what are some of the biggest mistakes that companies make when implementing a hybrid work model? And maybe you can link this to sort of advice around you know if an organization is still struggling to figure this out. So what are some of the big mistakes? And then evolve that into so how to maybe avoid those mistakes. What types of things can they do? I mean what you talked about there in terms of team psychological safety, so it's that kind of tips that people can think, oh, that might work in our organization. So let's start with some of the biggest mistakes you've seen. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:06

First, it's not involving people in the process. So many companies are taking this one-size-fits-all approach, so it's the CEO or a committee of people that get together and say this is how it's going to work. And once again, you're telling your team how they should do their work without consulting with them, and that's a huge mistake. So, involve people in the conversation. I think that that requires vulnerability for leaders to accept. Hey, I don't have no one knows how the future is going to look like, so accept it and bring people in and say hey, we are exploring option A, b and C. What do you think? The second we already talked about is rather than try to think of one size fits all, allow each of your teams to decide how they want to work. Then it's about balancing personal preferences between, and a personal preferences with, the team needs. For example, there are companies that are more into hey, this is what the team needs, adapted, not take it or leave it. And there are companies that are too much into what you want to do, and then they are focusing too much on individual preferences and that's not effective.

Speaker 2: 28:18

If everyone works at their own rhythm, then we…. So one exercise we do and people can access in our website we have all the downloads, free downloads and facilitation guides. We do an exercise that's called the washing instructions. So, the same way that your clothes have a label that define how they need to be treated, you need to understand how each team member wants to collaborate and how they need to be treated. So the exercise has two parts one it's individual, so what? These are my preferences.

Speaker 2: 28:47

But the second one, the second part, which is the toughest one, is okay, I understand you, but now let's find common ground because we're a team. So if everyone does whatever they want, we're not going to be able to work together. So finding that balance between understanding your team member preferences and finding common ground, that's critical. And I can tell you, we've been doing this for months and months and teams are not there yet. So a lot of teams are saying, oh wow, we never thought about how we need to. Things are not there yet. So a lot of teams are saying, oh wow, we never thought about how we need to.

Speaker 1: 29:19

Things about communication, collaboration, those things are really critical to agree on. I can actually hear many of our listeners going ah because what you? Just because I think there's a fear out there that you know, if you ask people they'll make impossible demands and therefore they say, well, let's not bother asking them, let's just tell them, whereas actually what you just described is giving them the opportunity to voice their preferences is one thing, but accepting those preferences as viable for how the team needs to deliver its results. They need to understand that maybe their personal preferences aren't always going to be met as long as the collective preferences and you find that common ground. Then if the teams know that up front as a frame, I guess it helps them know that the exercise is worth doing.

Speaker 2: 30:08

Indeed. And that takes us to the last part of what people can do better. It's, rather than trying to find the perfect solution, experiment. So. We're in a changing world, so treat this hybrid as a continuous experiment. So, whatever you put in practice, it's not set in stone. Going back to the building analogy, it's let's test it, see what works. That's why it's great to have different experiments across different pockets of the organization, so you can get different data and then compare results and see how you can scale those learnings.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Okay so, getting towards the end and I'm sure a lot of listeners are thinking what sort of examples does Gustavo have from some of maybe his clients or companies he's interviewed who have successfully implemented a hybrid work model? Can you share a few examples?

Speaker 2: 31:03

Yeah, I mean for me, there are two companies that have done a terrific we talked about Slack earlier, but terrific job are Spotify, and I was also talking about Airbnb.

Speaker 2: 31:15

And there's a third one that's not maybe well-known, probably in Europe, but here a little bit. That's Allstate, which is a regional insurance company, and the three have implemented basically work from anywhere, anytime kind of policy, following some of the advice I was just sharing. So they're allowing teams to make decisions in terms of how they want to work, where they want to work from and when. And there are some metrics that show not only that their businesses have grown a lot people are satisfied, the loyalty to the company has increased but also and this is a thing that usually it's not associated but it's critical for hybrid it's diversity. So let's take Spotify. The amount of women and executive position has tripled in the past two years at Spotify because of this flexibility. Allstate has been able to recruit 40% more people from minority groups since they went into this hybrid model. So the company has been always pursuing diversity and basically this was the accelerator.

Speaker 1: 32:27

So people can actually go out and find information on these companies or even some of these companies are probably open to I mean, I don't know whether they do that anymore, but I remember the time when you had the Baldrige Awards and that and companies that won these awards. People went and visited them to study a little bit and try to figure out what might work in their own organization. I'm not sure if these things go on today, but it sounds like something that organizations might consider doing. Go and find out what they're doing. But I do have a question.

Speaker 2: 33:02

Sorry, but I described some of these examples in my book, but also in recent articles in my blog, so people can go and find all the information on what they did and certain details as well.

Speaker 1: 33:11

Okay, that's great. Now there may be some people out there for whatever reason maybe it's their work experience or what you know and they're kind of going okay, nearly all these examples are technology, white collar, highly digitalized workplaces. What about hotels, restaurants, hospitals? You know places like that? Have you got any sense about how the notion or concept of hybrid lands in those environments?

Speaker 2: 33:44

Definitely. I think that once again, it's like their business that can go hybrid, fully their business. That depend on who I mean. If you're on the customer service end, you have, to your point, limitations, but there are companies that are providing. For example, even if you're a client facing that you work at a restaurant, they're still allowing people to work maybe four days a week instead of five to balance the flexibility that our team members have.

Speaker 2: 34:10

What I always ask clients, or encourage clients, before assuming that your company cannot adopt a hybrid model involve your people, because I can tell you that people want to come up with creative solutions to help you deal with that and especially because you don't want to create, like, two cultures. A certain team members to your point, maybe tech-based or blue-collar jobs have full flexibility and the ones that don't have none. For example, citibank created a model in which they divided their roles in three groups people that can work in a hiring mode, people that are fully remote and people that are fully in-person, and I think that's a mistake because they are making assumptions how people should work. And there are other companies like, for example, hubspot. They create those same three buckets but instead of categorizing people, they invited people to say hey, where do you want to work? And show me that you can do it, and that's a better take on it, because people always come with solutions that you never expected to do their jobs okay.

Speaker 1: 35:14

So and we're here, I'm hearing again in involved people, involved people and yeah, sorry, yeah, and you know it's amazing how many people will respond positively to being asked their opinion. The amount of people who do engagement surveys and who say that their opinions are not being valued, it's quite profound and it can be demoralizing. And it's back to you, say, about the psychological safety if every time you are asked for an opinion about something, somebody shoots you down or says that's not going to work or whatever. Eventually you stop doing it and you feel what's the point, and so that can be a bit deflating for people. Um, what, what can? Um, what, what can managers do? To what can they start for?

Speaker 1: 36:05

Some managers may already be there because, for whatever reason, others may be struggling with this, um, and you know there is this concept that structure drives behavior, so they may be going. I'd like to be able to do this, but you know you can't believe how our organization is structured and you know I'll be thinking it never works. What advice can you, can you give managers who believe because what you talked about very nicely and this is this is so important is not every department works in the same way or has the same interaction requirements, et cetera, and so each department or team can really think about what's right for me. But if you're a manager out there now and you're thinking well, I like what Gustavo was saying how can they go about the process of perhaps starting to introduce this to their organization?

Speaker 2: 36:57

I think there are many ways to do it. So one quick way is asking people what's working and what's not working. That usually opens very interesting conversations if you want to do something informal and you're going to get great feedback. When you acknowledge, when you're asking people what's working, you know that it's a I want to confirm that some things are really good. But when you say not working, you're also acknowledging, and consciously, that I know that you're pissed off for some things.

Speaker 2: 37:24

Sure, one exercise that we do, also more formal, it's what we call the culture reset and, as I mentioned, it's what we call the culture reset and, as I mentioned, it's about revisiting the three stages so pre-covid, a covid and post-covid and see what things were working, or working each of those, and try to reconcile, because I think it's important that hybrid is not a add-on, it's an evolution, right? Yeah, so it's not a now we're changing everything. Oh, it's an evolution of things that were. It's not a now we're changing everything, oh, it's an evolution of things that were already happening in place, and we need to leverage the things that the team was good at and the things that the team weren't good at at the same time as well.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Okay, and if you are a manager who's in a hybrid context, or whatever way it's being defined, what role do you play in ensuring the success of your hybrid team? What advice would you give managers out there who are working in hybrid?

Speaker 2: 38:20

The key role is facilitating the culture and facilitating conversations and also clarifying expectations. Some people involve people like, hey, we're going to do what people want and there's finding the right balance. So I would say that managers need to use a consultative decision-making model in which they need to be clear hey, we're not voting here this is not necessarily a democracy that we're going to do whatever people want, but we're going to really take into consideration the impact of your ideas, ideas and then I'm going to be the one deciding no. So if you clarify that people are not going to get to your point, frustrated because they voiced ideas and they were not listened to. But, of course, if you're asking for input, it's because you really care. If you don't, don't waste people's time because it's going to backfire. So if you're a manager that you're not open to ideas, then don't ask people for ideas.

Speaker 1: 39:13

Okay, so at the end, thanks again. It's been fantastic. I mean you shared some great tips with our listeners. How can people get in contact with you, and I believe you may even have a little special offer for a few lucky listeners.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Absolutely. You may even have a little special offer for a few lucky listeners. Absolutely the easiest way to get in contact is via linkedin. I'm very I mean, I participate a lot there. I'm very active. I'm the only gustavo razzetti with double c, double t, so it's going to be easy for them to find me. And in order to encourage people to reach out and connect, we have a surprise and the first three people that reach out via LinkedIn to me, they're going to get a free subscription to my Substack. So it's a paid subscription. So you're going to have a one-year subscription where you'll be able to access not only my latest article, but I have over 600 articles published there, so you can browse my library and get tools, insights and stories from different companies how they're building their cultures yeah, and for those who don't know what substack is, it's a publishing platform which contains sometimes just free content, but also paid content, privileged content.

Speaker 1: 40:26

So you're offering our listeners three lucky listeners access to all that content that normally they would have to pay for. And are you on this famous platform called uh, what's it called now? X or twitter? Are you also on x?

Speaker 2: 40:41

uh, used to. I'm still there, but, thank you, I'm not using anymore because it's I mean, I don't like where it's heading yeah, I, yeah, let's not.

Speaker 1: 40:50

Let's not go there. I don't think I'm inviting elon onto the program. Actually some reservations, um, so this has been great. Uh, we put some links in the show notes for listeners regular listeners out there. We now actually have a linkedin and leading people page, so I'll encourage you to go over and and join the page. We're obviously notifying about the podcast, but we're also publishing a little bit of extra content there that may be interesting to you. Uh, please go to your favorite podcast channel, whether it's um, apple or google or amazon or wherever you find your spotify, wherever you find your podcast. Yeah, why not go to spotify? Apparently, they're great at hybrid working, according to gustavo and um, and we'll see you in the next one. So, gustavo Rossetti, thanks for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with me.

Speaker 2: 41:39

My pleasure. Thank you, Jerry, for hosting me.

Speaker 1: 41:44

Coming up in the next episode.

Speaker 3: 41:47

It should serve the productivity, as you mentioned, but it should allow us not only AI, but digitalization in general, should allow us to allocate more time to human interaction, to build a better employee's experience, and so on. So definitely.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Join Sébastien Tronchon, a senior HR leader at Bridgestone, and myself, as Sébastien shares his expert insights on the evolving role of HR in embracing artificial intelligence, fostering a sense of community in remote work environments and connecting with the aspirations of new generations. Until next time.