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Gerry Murray talks to leading people about leading people. Get insights and tips from thought leaders about how to bring out the best in yourself and others.
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Why Busyness Isn't Aways Good for Business
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In this episode, Malissa Clark, Associate Professor of Psychology at Georgia University in the US and author of: Never Not Working: Why the Always-On Culture Is Bad for Business—and How to Fix It, reveals the surprising truths about busyness and its impact on performance and well-being.
A key takeaway is that workaholism significantly impacts individual health and organizational culture.
Based on her extensive research, Malissa reveals the distinct differences between workaholism and overwork, providing insights into internal and external factors driving these behaviours, along with proactive strategies to combat them.
We cover a lot of ground in this conversation including:
- Defining workaholism versus overwork
- Exploring internal and external drivers of workaholic behaviour
- Examining modern perceptions of busyness and productivity
- Discussing the impact of technology on work-life boundaries
- Highlighting leadership's influence on organizational culture
- Offering actionable individual strategies to manage workaholism
- Stressing the importance of self-care and boundaries in the workplace
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Wide Circle
Welcome to Episode 61 of Leading People. With me, Gerry.
Speaker 2:Murray, this episode is brought to you by Wide Circle, helping you make better talent decisions. To learn more, visit widecircleeu. That's W-I-D-E-C-I-R-C-L-E dot E-U C-I-R-C-L-E dot E-U.
Speaker 1:My guest this week is Dr Melissa Clark, author and associate psychology professor at the University of Georgia in the US. In this episode, melissa reveals the hidden toll of workaholism and the always-on culture on personal health and organizational success. During our intriguing conversation, we tackle three key questions what distinguishes overwork from workaholism and why does it matter? How do internal and external factors combine to drive workaholic tendencies, and what actionable strategies can individuals and leaders use to combat these harmful habits? Throughout, melissa shares her profound insights, backed up by groundbreaking research and personal experiences.
Speaker 2:So get ready to rethink your approach to life-work boundaries and how leadership shapes organizational culture. So, without further ado, let's hear what Melissa has to say.
Speaker 1:Melissa Clark welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So you've just published a book. It's one of the reasons why I invited you on the podcast, and we'll get to that shortly, but first so our listeners can get to know you better. How did you get here? Is there some person, place or an event that stands out on your journey to where you are today? Or was there one of these epiphany moments? And why did you choose a career in academia?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it wasn't just one thing. I kind of found this career through a kind of longer process. In college I studied psychology and communications, didn't really know what I wanted to do, so I just took a job in sales and worked that for a couple of years and didn't like it at all. It was a lot of pressure and I noticed a lot of things about the culture and the organization that weren't great. So I started thinking about classes that I really liked in college and the class that stood out to me was organizational psychology. So I thought, well, what can I do with that?
Speaker 3:Started applying to grad schools, found my way into a PhD program, which I also didn't know. I wanted to go into academia. Then I thought I was going to go into industry and be a consultant. But once I got into academia I really loved doing research and I really liked being able to study topics that were interesting to me. So about my second year in graduate school I realized, aha, I want to be a professor. So academia was my new focus and then, you know, I kind of found my way. But that work experience really did help me to get some practical experience but also reflect on my passions and that kind of steered me in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think we might get to some of this drive and passion that you had for academia in a few minutes when we start talking about the book. So let's get to the book Sure, For the benefit of our listeners. It's called.
Speaker 3:Never Not Working, why the Always-On Culture is Bad for Business and how to Fix it.
Speaker 1:Great title, so thank you. What inspired you? To? Write a book on this topic and why now?
Speaker 3:So in graduate school I stumbled upon the topic in a class actually and realized I really resonated with it my whole life, even as a child in elementary school I always found myself, you know, feeling pressured to go above and beyond, to really put everything into my schoolwork and honestly everything, even volunteering. I would take everything to the extreme and I realized that I had some workaholic tendencies extreme. And I realized that I had some workaholic tendencies and so dove into the research in graduate school I never looked back. I've been studying this topic of workaholism and overwork for you know, my whole career now. So you know, just just really realizing that I could personally relate but also that there was a lot of room in the literature for advances and so being able to contribute scientifically was exciting to me.
Speaker 1:So I think by now my listeners are probably going am I a workaholic? Do I just work like everybody else? Or you know what kind of how would I describe myself? And I guess most of us can relate to what we think it is. However, before we get into diving deeper into it, what is overwork and what is it not, and what are some of the myths that you've busted in your book?
Speaker 3:that you've busted in your book. Yeah, so when I talk about workaholism, it's not just about hours worked, it's about what's driving those hours, and so I like to talk about it as a compulsion to work that drives people to work excessively. So the compulsion is that kind of inner pressure that we feel like we ought to be constantly doing something, constantly proving ourselves. We feel anxious if we're not working. We think about work all the time. The cognitive component is really key and, not surprisingly, we do work more than we should. We find ourselves, you know, having a difficult time pulling back from work when we really should be taking a break. So it's really multifaceted. There's a lot of different pieces to it. So, you know, I think a lot of people just think about it as hours worked, and that can be influenced by a lot of different things.
Speaker 1:You know the boss you have, maybe it's the busy season, but but really, looking internally and what's driving, that is kind of a critical component yeah, you make a distinction like people will have to work, sometimes long hours, and that doesn't mean that they have workaholism or overwork in their life. When we talk about what's driving the so-called workaholic tendencies, what combination of external and internal factors have you discovered in your research?
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Speaker 3:Yeah, great question.
Speaker 3:You know, I do think of overwork as something that is distinct from workaholism and that, to me, is more about how long are you working, and and that can absolutely be driven by these external factors that you know, external, externally you're, you're being pressured to work those long hours, um, but, like I said, workaholism is really mostly internally driven, although the circumstances we are in can exacerbate any workaholic tendencies that we might have.
Speaker 3:So the culture of the organization, uh, the patterns and norms of your work team, um, even the broader societal culture that we live in, there are some cultures US is guilty of this, of perpetuating this hustle culture, kind of always staying on as the ideal worker that also from a young age can, you know, ingrain these beliefs of what we think we need to be doing to be a good worker, and then circumstances throughout our lives can kind of facilitate that and reinforce that. So it is kind of this combination of we do have some internal tendencies, some certain personality traits are very highly linked with workaholism. Certain personality traits are very highly linked with workaholism, like perfectionism for example. But we also see research that suggests that our circumstances, for example having high job demands, can over time increase someone's workaholic tendencies.
Speaker 1:So it's a combination of both, right? So it's this kind of badge of honor type thing where you almost have to go out socially and say, oh, I used to laugh at this when I used to work. I worked for a very big multinational. I sometimes would meet like some of the most I was a bit more junior, but some of the more senior guys in the lift, you know what do you call it the elevator or whatever and I used to say how you and the answer was I'm busy and you kind of go. But is that? That's not quite, when you think of it logically, you think I was. I used to be tempted to say is there a cure for that? Or you're getting treatment, you know, right, but I had to hold back because I didn't want to get fired. But you know, it was like, yeah, I'm busy, it was the answer, rather than I'm doing fine, or I'm happy or I'm sad. There was a sort of it was like the badge of all. The standard answer was I'm busy and it was kind of Absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know it's funny. You mentioned that because there I can't remember the title of the book, but I was just reading a book where there was an immigrant to a new country Actually, I think it was to the United States and they had thought busy meant good, because they kept on hearing people answering exact the exact same way that you just said how are you doing busy? Um, so, it's just so ingrained. Uh, you know, it'd be very unusual for someone to be like, oh, you know, I'm pretty relaxed and, um, enjoying life right now. No, it's always I'm going, I'm going, I'm pretty relaxed and enjoying life right now. No, it's always I'm going, I'm going, I'm busy.
Speaker 1:So again, that goes to the societal piece yeah, saying I'm chilled might not be the best answer yeah, I'm feeling pretty chilled right now however, just just to finish out the little piece about internal, external, you do make a very valid point that some people and I suppose this reflects a little bit what we sometimes hear in both in countries, even like the United States, some people have to work longer hours to make ends meet. Is that? And therefore, what distinctions can you make there for somebody who's sitting out there thinking, well, I just have to pay the bills, and and and, and. Am I overworking or am I a workaholic? Or what have you noticed in the research?
Speaker 3:yeah, so they're probably overworking. Um, if they have to work two, three jobs to well, they're definitely overworking if they have to work three jobs, for example, to make ends meet. But it's an entirely different set of problems, um, equally important, but distinct from the workaholism literature. You know that goes to the effects of job insecurity and financial concerns on our well-being, and you know so they're. They're both equally important and very, you know, important to our well-being topics, but they are. But they are distinct, you know, important to our well-being topics, but they are distinct, you know so I think, either way, if someone is overworking, whether because they're working three jobs or because they have these workaholic tendencies, the bottom line is that they're both negatively related to our health and well-being.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's we'll get. Maybe unpack that a little bit in a few minutes Before we do that. Describe the modern workaholic for the listeners.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that you know the modern workaholic may be. This person may look very different than the workaholic of the 1950s, 1960s, because a lot of our jobs now we're not physically going into work, clocking in and clocking out. Of course some jobs are absolutely still like that and so they. You know there used to be these very visible signs of they're the first one in, they're the last one to leave burning the midnight oil, staying all weekend. That can be a piece of it. But oftentimes the modern workaholic can be just more visible through technology. Emailing all hours of the night. You're getting emails three in the morning, four in the morning and you're thinking, do they ever sleep? And constantly on their phone when they're at family gatherings, whether it's a wedding or vacation, taking technology with them to vacation. So I think the modern workaholic, even though they might not be physically at work as much as before, they're still working and it might even be worse because of technology it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was. I was doing a coaching session with somebody the other day and we were looking at their stress management and we were looking at two dimensions around stress management. One is how they manage stress when it occurs, which is usually an ability to reframe a situation and see possibilities. The other dimension is how relaxed they are when they're working. This person had a pretty weird with a psychometric tool that measures it. They had a pretty good, pretty robust score on managing stress well when it occurred, a very low score on relaxed. And I asked the person like tell me how you relax? And they went I don't. I just simply can't be not doing something. I'm like if I'm sitting there not doing something, I'm not relaxed because I'm not doing something. So how representative would that be of a symptom that you might be tending towards workaholism?
Speaker 3:Very. That is a key indicator. You know that almost like unsettled feeling if you're not working, that you really have a difficult time just being in the moment. It causes a great deal of anxiety for people. In my book I interviewed dozens of workaholics from Workaholics Anonymous and one thing I consistently heard over and over was it almost was an addiction to doing, to being busy, and so even when they were not working kind of tended to take everything to the extreme in order to fill that space. So that is a pretty common thing that I've heard and I experienced personally too. You know it's difficult for me to just sit and watch a show without also grabbing my laptop and answering some work emails. That is something we call working light and it. You know we think we're relaxing but we're actually not. We're still working, and so I've had to make conscious efforts to stop doing that so much.
Speaker 1:And of course the neuroscience shows that split attention is is no attention.
Speaker 3:Yep, we think we're much better at it than we actually are.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, and multitasking is more multi-sequencing, apart from the unconscious things that we do that are so ingrained in us that you know we can drive a car and talk to somebody on the phone or don't think about something else. But most of the things we have to focus, we can't focus on two things at the same time. It's this kind of mythology that exists. I wanted to ask you a question about Workaholics Anonymous. As I was reading the book, I was looking who goes to Workaholics? I mean, how does somebody decide or know that they have to go to this society organization called Workaholics Anonymous, Because maybe our listeners are out there going? Should I be joining up?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I guess hearing about it on platforms like this or through a friend, or perhaps they're dealing with a. I did hear a couple of individuals that also were in Alcoholics Anonymous and they found out about Workaholics Anonymous through that other organization. Okay, but yeah, I mean it's a global organization. People from all over the world can join and now, because of the pandemic, zoom meetings are very common. I'm not personally a member, although definitely I have the signs and could be, Um, but yeah, so I had heard about it through um, just people that I was talking to and got connected with the organization. They sent a, you know, a message out to their members about the book. If people wanted to be interviewed, they could contact me. So many wonderful people stepped up, but from literally around the world. So it's really for a lot of people, a life-changing experience and it is that 12-step kind of uh program modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous, um, and so for some people that has really helped them to to change their life okay, so there is.
Speaker 1:For those who might feel that are at this extreme end of this already, uh, and that's if you're you're not doing three other things. I was listening to this podcast. We'll say, um, so, uh, at least you now know out there that there is this organization. I presume you can google it and it'll pop up on your, on your screen, for you. Um, maybe that's a nice segue into in the book. You argue that the always-on culture is bad for business and I'm curious how did you conclude this and what does your research show? Because you had a nice, I was going to say you had a nice rich pool of people. If you tapped into an organization like Workaholics Anonymous and this idea that it's bad for business, how did you conclude that and what did your, what does your research show to support that view?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know, like I said, I've been studying this topic since graduate school. So I've conducted a lot of my own research on the topic and one of those studies was a meta-analysis which basically is taking all of the existing research and compiling them statistically to get kind of these big overarching averages. So one of the main takeaways from that meta-analysis and we actually just updated it and it's not published yet, but I can let you know kind of what those findings are but one of the big findings are that workaholism is actually not related to being a better performer, that workaholism is actually not related to being a better performer.
Speaker 3:Right Across all the studies that looked at performance, whether it was self-rated or supervisor-rated, there was a non-significant, it was just zero, just not related at all, and we updated it found the exact same thing with 10 additional years of research. So it's not playing out in the research and we're actually seeing some additional studies that it can be negatively related to things like your interactions with others. So workaholics tend to kind of be difficult to work with sometimes because they set really high expectations and very tight timelines tighter than they should be, can be very demanding bosses and so they create this interpersonal environment that can be toxic, to be quite frank, can be toxic, to be quite frank. And so we saw a relationship, a very strong relationship, between workaholism and counterproductive work behaviors, things that harm the organization or people in the organization. That relationship was pretty strong.
Speaker 1:So can I ask you because of course there's always this discussion about you know, correlations are one thing, but cause and effect is another. But you always have correlations and cause and effect, any cause and effect aspects to this, or is it just highly correlated?
Speaker 3:So most of the studies are correlational, but there are a few that are looking at across time and the same findings play out. You know, there does not seem to be a relationship, even if we kind of separate out time-wise. Um, you know, it's not really something that we can manipulate in an experiment to. You know, assign people to your workaholic or you're not. So we cannot actually conduct the experimental designs to get at causality specifically. But what we can do in our research is track people over time, across months or years, and even that research still is not showing the causal direction.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, so maybe part of the explanation to this lies in the neurobiology of what happens when you over, when you have work, holism, um, how does that affect? Because I've had these discussions where people go no, um, you know simple things, like I remember working with a group once saying how often do you take a break in the afternoon? And there was like shock, horror and people looking at the big boss and then nobody's spoken and the big boss said you don't understand if, if they took a break at four o'clock, we might, um, not get finished that project until seven. And I said if they took a break at four o'clock, they could all be home by 5, 30, um, and I got this kind of I said because there's a certain, you know, it's this law of diminishing returns. Did you find that in in this performance relationship, like actually people who just keep going, going, going, and this neurobiology of how the brain works, and that maybe you could unpack a little bit of that that you discovered?
Speaker 3:that might help explain it to to the listeners yeah, well, you mentioned the diminishing law of returns, and so there's a an economist, john Pencavel, who has conducted tons of statistical models showing exactly that. So you know, what he found was someone working about 50 hours a week was no more productive, or, I'm sorry, someone working 70 hours per week was no more productive than someone working 40, 50 hours per week. And actually, at a certain point, you start to become less productive because you're making mistakes that you then later have to fix, and so you're devoting extra time to fix the mistakes that you made because you were past the point of being able to think. You know, think to think straight, um, and to your point about you know the science behind it.
Speaker 3:Our bodies are not meant to be in constant fight or flight mode.
Speaker 3:That is an emergency, you know response that's very helpful for evolution, um, to get us out of a crisis.
Speaker 3:But the research shows that people higher in workaholism, they tend to not be able to differentiate between a true crisis and an artificial crisis, and so they're constantly in fight or flight, and so their cortisol is actively elevated all of the time and they're not getting that recovery that is needed, and this is why we're seeing links between workaholism and cardiovascular risk, even autoimmune diseases, because, again, our bodies are constantly revving up, thinking we're fighting some infection and something needs to be attacked.
Speaker 3:But that kind of going back to baseline is so critical for our health, and so that's one thing, and the other key thing is they're not taking those breaks, as you said, and there's a ton of research in rest and recovery that we can actually be more productive if we kind of even force ourselves to take a break, even before we even feel tired, and that allows us to again kind of calm down a little bit, kind of reset, so that we can come back to the task more focused and with more energy. So all of those things are so important and that is, I think, a big reason why we're not seeing that relationship with performance.
Speaker 1:Coming up. Melissa shares actionable strategies for combating workaholism.
Speaker 1:The role of leaders in setting healthier boundaries and how technology can be both a blessing and a curse. So back to our conversation. You mentioned cardiovascular. However, people can also. High levels of cortisol are going to affect how you sleep. It's going to affect overeating as well, because we're going to end up in comfort zones around food and stuff like that, and then you end up with a deadly cocktail and you might not be exercising. So you end up with the diet, the exercise and sleep which are so fundamental for recharging, refueling the body and keeping it in some sort of you know well-maintained state. All of those suffer then, right, eventually.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and thank you for bringing up the sleep component. There's a lot of really great research going on right now looking at the effects of overwork and workaholism on sleep quantity and quantity. You know it's one woman that I interviewed said, you know her doctor told her she just wasn't getting restful sleep. You know she was laying there but she really wasn't going into the you know, proper REM sleep and so it does drastically affect all of these different areas of you know things that are very important to our health. As you mentioned, exercise, you know, just not taking the time for self-care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so we're actually wearing down. If it was a factory, what you're doing is wearing down the machines by running them at full capacity all the time. The machines in the factory will wear out if they're not maintained and and they need to be shut down every so often for that purpose. So, um, let's just, let's just move on to evolve this a little bit. So how does technology contribute to workaholism, and could some technologies actually help us treat our workaholism?
Speaker 3:you know so yeah, that's a great question, you know. So, on the one hand, technology can be a detriment because it tethers, tethers us to our work with our smartphones, with our laptops it's so easy, it's right at our fingertips, right. And so it takes even more effort to resist that, especially if you have workaholic tendencies. And also what I've seen since COVID. Covid shifted our communication patterns. Microsoft did some studies of use of their platforms during COVID and they found that use of their platforms increased in the evenings and on the weekends significantly. And I do kind of see that a lot of teams and organizations have kind of gotten into this new rhythm of when they communicate with each other and so there's a lot less boundaries in terms of off times. And so what we get is this cycle of responsiveness where we know people are going to be sending stuff, so then we check you know our emails at these odd times, and then they expect responses because they see us responding to them, and it's just amplifying everything.
Speaker 3:But I do think there are some leverage points where technology can be really beneficial. So, for example, you can stop that cycle of responsiveness if you set ground rules on when people should be sending messages. You know, you can. You can obviously turn off Slack messages and stuff like that, but you can also use some of the features that some companies are already doing this, to be honest.
Speaker 3:If someone tries to send an email after hours, for example, companies are already doing this, to be honest. If someone tries to send an email after hours, for example, you can set it so it will automatically pop up and say you know it's 8pm. Are you sure you want to send this email now, or do you want to schedule it for 8am the next morning? And it will prompt you and remind you, and then you can then not be sending people emails which they might feel like they have to respond to right away. So you can leverage technology in these really useful ways that I think. It's not all doom and gloom. We can, you know, think of creative ways to combat that, always on 24-7 mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, reflecting on what you said about Microsoft Studies, I think in some of the studies they even said that the volume of emails went up when people started working remotely. And I guess that topic, that famous four-letter word, begins with F, not that the other one, fomo yeah, definitely FOMO creeps into the equation. Why do people feel the compulsion and it is, you know, before they go to bed or go to sleep at night to check their emails.
Speaker 3:Probably one of the worst things you could do, because if there's something in there that whatever is going to create some thought patterns or that it's just going to get in the way of you switching off for the oh, absolutely, um, and especially if you haven't turned off your notifications for whatever platform you know, communication platform you use, say you're in bed and you wake up at two in the morning, you want to check your phone to see what time it is and then, when you pick it up, you see five slack messages that you're like oh my gosh, now I have to get up and answer these, so it creates a whole host of new problems. So, um, yeah, all all good things to think about.
Speaker 1:Well, of course, some people will be out there thinking like, well, I'm working in a big global company and I'm part of an international team, so that we got time zone issues, etc.
Speaker 1:I did come across something the other day and I somebody repeated it, I'd heard it a while back which is uh, some people have put a footer in their email saying I'm sending this to you maybe it's a sunday afternoon, because this is my rhythm. I don't expect you to respond if it doesn't fit your rhythm. Now I'm talking about even more senior people, because that gives more permission to people. Have you come across any other clever techniques or examples of how people have maybe been able to maintain their activity level that they wanted to maintain, but at the same time, signaling to other people that they you know it's okay if they receive my email, it's because I'm busy and I'm I mean, I could get an email at three o'clock in the morning from somebody working in san francisco. Yeah, I'm like nine hours time difference and they could be finishing up their yeah so I have mixed feelings about those messages on emails, and let me explain why.
Speaker 3:So I do think there are some really good qualities about that. You're signaling as a leader that you are, that you recognize that you might be sending stuff at odd times and and people work on different schedules, however. So I think it's good, but it could be better. Um, because I think leaders tend to assume that people with less power in the organization have the same amount of autonomy as they do for determining their schedule, and they also, I think, underestimate the amount of pressure people feel if someone higher up sends them an email and it all is, you know, also intertwined with the culture of the organization and your team's communication patterns, because I can tell you, I know personally people that have that message and they still expect a response right away. So it almost feels like hypocritical that they have that. So I think leaders can do a good job practicing what they preach and try using the schedule send feature, I do think you know and try using the schedule send feature.
Speaker 3:I do think, you know, sometimes emails can just be sent later and you know you want to send it while it's fresh in your mind. I get that, but use schedule, send and also have clear conversations with people. Don't leave it ambiguous. You know my schedule is different than yours. Respond whenever Maybe say you know, I realize I'm sending this on a friday, I don't want a response until monday. Yeah, it's almost like an order, like do not respond, um, and so the person receiving that doesn't one feel the pressure to like.
Speaker 1:It's very ambiguous when you want an answer, and so I do think being clear can actually really really help and that that kind of nicely segues into what you write about in the book called enablers and um, and particularly, how do leaders contribute to workaholism or overwork in their organizations? Because at the end of the day, you know when people say the organization does this or does that, there is no such thing as an organization. An organization is a collection of individuals, and usually is it one or two of them dictating a lot of things. And, come on, it's usually at the top. It starts whether it's what those people intend, it's what those other people interpret, that it seems to drive it. So give it, give us some examples of the types of things that enable workaholism in organizations, and so the people out there can maybe start to spot those and say, oh, my God, you know that's happening in my organization. Or, my God, I'm actually enabling this and that's not my intention.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, and I think that's really important that you pointed out. People might not even realize that they're reinforcing overwork and workaholism. So I talk about in the book, about recognizing these signals of overwork that exist within the norms and the patterns and the just interactions in a company. Let me give you some specific examples. So what is rewarded? So reward you know who is being promoted and what are the reasons that are provided for why those people are being promoted. So, if the reasons are well, Johnny's the one that you know finishes up the project, no matter what time. He's always here, you know, on the weekends. I was speaking with one company and they were talking about the CEO bragging on a call that someone in Japan, even though they were in the US, was always available whenever they needed them, Talking about working across time zones. Well, what does that mean? That means they're working in the middle of the night. So who's being rewarded? And you know what are the norms.
Speaker 3:What are the new employees taught from when they start in a company? And one woman I interviewed, she was in a management consulting career before she quit that Um, and when she started her job she was told, you know, they were expected to be there and not really ever leave. And so when she needed to run an errand, she was told to leave her coat and her purse on her desk to signal to others oh, she was only going for a very short period of time, because what woman doesn't take their purse with them when they're leaving and going somewhere? So, again, this is what the newbies are taught when they first start. And so what is that signal? You need to be there, no matter what, even if you have something personal that needs to be taken care of, and even if the organization broadly seems to support work-family balance.
Speaker 3:That leader has the most direct impact on their team, and so the leaders make a tremendous difference. I can't, you know, state that enough. You know they're the role model. So they need to practice what they preach. If they want their employees to have these boundaries, they need to also have those boundaries. They need to also be the ones to take a vacation and not be emailing throughout the whole vacation. And they also, you know, I think, speaking to this communication, you know, come up with clear norms of when people should be communicating, because if the leader sometimes the leader is the main facilitator of that, always on kind of communication and so that even if the leader thinks they're fine because they have that message at the bottom of their email, you know, maybe there are things that they can do to avoid employees feeling that pressure to begin with. Yeah, so I mean, I think there are things at the level of the leader that are super critical, but also it's important to also look more broadly at the organizational norms, expectations, reward systems, all of that.
Speaker 1:There's a lot more in the book about this. So anybody who's already curious and can, if they want, to multitask now, they can go on Amazon, I guess, and buy the book as we talk. I suppose another question that's going through everybody's mind is okay.
Speaker 3:I think I might have some of these tendencies. How can I kick the habit? Yeah, so now we're talking about more at the individual level, and so there's a lot more than I can get into here, but just some things to think about. One to that piece about workaholics not being able to tell the difference between a true crisis and an artificial crisis is redefine what is urgent. Think about everything you have going on that day, that week and you know, map it out. What things can you move to another person or delegate? What things are, you know, sort of important. You need to get it done sometime this week, but you don't need to stay up all night finishing it today, you, today and there are things that are urgent, and I get that, and there are always going to be ebbs and flows in people's jobs, and so, yes, sometimes that's required, but really think about what you're doing and all of your tasks and all of your obligations, and really try to rank them in terms of urgency and importance.
Speaker 3:Um, and realize that our to-do list is never going to be done, we're never going to finish everything on it, and so forget that. That's not, you know, a goal. The goal at the end of the day should not be to finish your to-do list. It should be to finish those truly important and urgent things, or the things that are most meaningful to you. I would also say build in um, if you have a to-do list, make sure that you have up there self-care. You know, 30 minute walk, build that into your to-do list so you don't forget to do it, because that can be very easy to just you know oh well, I'm too busy to to do this. No, you actually need to carve that out.
Speaker 1:That's so important um one of the best tips, tips I've ever had on to-do lists was write them into your calendar yeah and then you get a reality check as to actually I'm going to do 25 things today.
Speaker 1:There isn't enough time today because I can only get five of them into my calendar yeah, that's a good point, yeah you and that's how, if you put the self-care in, then you say at 11 30 I'm going for a walk or I'm going to whatever it is you're going to do, then you're keeping having a meeting with yourself, but at least it is you're going to do, then you're keeping having a meeting with yourself, but at least you're you're keeping to the commitment that's there. And I noticed you in the book I didn't read it yet but uh, you're using the Eisenhower matrix in there as one way to represent importance and urgency. I used to do some work I won't say the organization's name, but it was called time management, which I always think is a bit comical because we can't manage time, but we can manage our attention within time frames. Now, but one of the exercises we would do to get people to keep a log for a week before they come on the training and we do this exercise before we do the matrix we just say get with post-it notes, get people to put things into an important basket or an urgent basket, and then of course we look at what things were really, you know, really not that necessary, they were just distractions.
Speaker 1:But one of the most interesting things I learned from doing that with multiple multi-group groups was how many things that had started off important ended up becoming urgent. You know they all of a sudden they were going to do them, going to do them, but they never got around to them. And then they jumped into the urgent basket and all of a sudden, the urgent basket filled up with a lot of because, of course, urgency can be just driven by something goes on outside, something's wrong. You know we need to react to this today and, of course, the idea is to try and minimize that so you can keep control over what's going on around you.
Speaker 1:You know stuff is going to happen, but what was happening was a lot of the stuff that they had set out to do two weeks beforehand was now getting done the night before or during the day when they were supposed to deliver it. So they inadvertently moved a lot of important stuff to urgent and of course, it all was urgent then because it was still important and people were struggling with this. However, it did set off some light bulbs in the room like aha, okay. So the question is how is that happening? You know, can you do something about what's creating that? Because that seems to be driving a lot of your stress then, because you know this stuff was just one of those kind of funny things Well, funny curious things that happens when, when you kind of start playing around with these tools, which are in themselves they don't solve the problem themselves, but how you use them and interpret them can help give you insights into, perhaps, what's contributing to the challenges.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean to that, if I, if I may. So one exercise I have that's very related to that is to, before you start a task, estimate how many hours you think it will take. Um, so, if I have a chapter that I'm finishing and, you know, maybe I think five more hours should be what it will take, and then I time myself, like you said, keep that log and time how many hours it actually takes For me. I've realized that I tend to be about 1.8 times more hours spent than what I think I will spend, and so I call it the workaholic clock in the book, and so I figure out my workaholic clock and then every time I promise someone whether it's a collaborator, for many of your listeners, a client, you know add, multiply whatever I would like to tell them. You know, oh, it'll take two days, multiply that out by your workaholic clock to extend that timeline.
Speaker 3:Because I think what might be happening with some of your clients and people that you've worked with is they're underestimating how long it's going to take, and so then they promise these deadlines that are not accurate and not reasonable, and then they get themselves into positions where they have to work these ridiculous hours to try to finish the project on time and also keep in mind hours of the day. I think workaholics tend to say well, I'm just going to work 15 hours, no like, have a stop time and add those extra hours onto the next day. And so what happens is, instead of promising a client you'll get something in two days, when you actually multiply it out, what you should be saying is you're going to get in a week and then you can over. You know what is it? You under promise and over deliver, and then you can look like a hero at the end. So that could be a good thing both ways.
Speaker 1:What I've discovered is you're dissociated. When you write something into a calendar You're not associating into the, you're not embodying it. So it's very easy to stick something in the calendar and then it sits there. We used to do exercise where we'd walk a timeline and that was very. People would go oh my God, I'm never going to be able to do that in the time I thought I could. And often, you know, one of the get out of jail cards is sometimes you have to either stop doing it or finish it, and that is the realization. Maybe it just doesn't fit anymore in your life. It's not adding any value just because you put it on the list one time. But then we're into the um, what do you call it? The sunk cost, fallacy problems that?
Speaker 2:Oh well.
Speaker 1:I've actually spent a couple of hours on that. I I should keep it going, you know, and what we don't realize is unfinished business drains our energy. So, uh, you know, know, all these factors come together. So, um, in the book there's loads of stuff about how to go about kicking the habit. Um, so, coming to the end, if we were to, if you were to give our listeners three insights you'd like them to take away about your research and what you put in the book, like three takeaways, three insights, what would those be?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the first thing is that, even if you don't identify as a workaholic, if you identify with some of the components, maybe you think about work all the time. Maybe you do work a few extra hours, or you know have a hard time putting it down on vacation, do work a few extra hours or you know have a hard time putting it down on vacation. Each one of those in isolation is linked to negative health outcomes, and so I think it's important to know that you don't have to be a full-blown workaholic to have these things take a negative toll on you. So that's kind of. The first thing is is you know that self-reflection, um, the the second thing is there are some actionable strategies that you can take, that you can take as a leader, that have been supported in the research as really useful and effective. So all hope is not lost.
Speaker 3:Even if you feel like a hopeless workaholic, there are things you can do. Even little changes can make a huge differenceaholic. There are things you can do. Even little changes can make a huge difference, and you got to start somewhere, right, yep? And the third thing is, I do think it's important to think about the facilitators in your organization, whether it's intentional or unintentional. What are the signals that your employees are being taught about how and when and where they should be working? And if these are being sent unintentionally, what can you do to change that and kind of reshape the culture around work in your company?
Speaker 1:Those are great, great tips and great insights. What's next for Melissa?
Speaker 3:Well, trying to have some self-care of my own, not go overboard with promoting the book to my own detriment. So I'm trying to practice what I preach, but still actively involved in research in this area.
Speaker 1:It's exciting times, I guess, having a book out and I guess you're getting a lot of interest, so I wish you lots of success with promoting it. Now some of our listeners might want to know how to get in touch with you. How can people get in touch with you and reach out, connect with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the easiest way is to connect on LinkedIn. My website's melissaclarkcom, but it's spelled a little differently. I'm sure it'll be in the name of the show, but Melissa is spelled pretty unique with an A. So, yeah, I would definitely love to connect with some of your listeners on LinkedIn and let me know what you thought of what we talked about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if they buy the book, they can also reach out.
Speaker 3:And they can definitely buy the book too. I would love that.
Speaker 1:Great, so as ever. Thanks, Melissa, for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Coming up next on Leading People.
Speaker 4:In some ways incredibly fast. But the lesson in it was if you speak to people's deepest values and you are congruent about how they mesh with yours, why would anybody say no? And that lesson has kind of been with me ever since and it led to Gravitas and then Find your Voice. But none of it would have happened without that really elegant piece of coaching.
Speaker 2:My next guest is Caroline Goider.
Speaker 1:She's an author of three books and a TEDx speaker with over 10 million views.
Speaker 2:Caroline shares how connecting with values opened doors to A-list celebrities like Helen Mirren, ewan McGregor and Cate Blanchett, to name but a few of those who feature in her first book, star Qualities. She reveals her approach to performing at your best and the power of aligning your message with what truly matters. So be sure to tune in to discover the secrets of Gravitas an authentic connection Until then.
