Leading People
Gerry Murray talks to leading people about leading people. Get insights and tips from thought leaders about how to bring out the best in yourself and others.
Leading People
Discover What It Takes to Be a Supercharged Leader
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In this episode:
Unlock the secrets to becoming a "Supercharged Leader" as we chat with leadership gurus Mandy Flint and Elizabeth Vinberg-Hearn.
Promising a unique take on leadership that veers away from traditional HR-driven methods, Mandy and Elizabeth enlighten us with strategies that synchronize personal leadership skills with business goals.
They draw from their rich experiences at American Express, illustrating how self-leadership is crucial for navigating today's fast-paced corporate world. Prepare to explore the six superchargers that could transform your leadership style and elevate your impact.
The conversation takes a deep dive into the qualities leaders need to thrive amidst rapid technological and global shifts. Mandy and Elizabeth discuss the mindset and skillsets that leaders must cultivate to tackle unforeseen challenges, especially those brought on by events like COVID-19.
They also touch upon the evolving role of AI and how leaders can harness collective intelligence to stay ahead. Expect to gain insights into balancing strategic thinking with daily operations and the role of trust in creating high-performing teams in a VUCA world.
For middle managers and leaders transitioning from individual contributor roles, this episode offers invaluable guidance on fostering trust and collaboration.
Learn how to effectively manage your emotional state to influence positive team dynamics and understand the ripple effect of self-leadership.
As AI continues to shape the business landscape, Mandy and Elizabeth stress the importance of continuous learning and adaptability.
Curious?
Listen now to discover how embracing humility and openness to new ideas can prepare you for the future challenges of leadership.
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Wide Circle
Welcome to Leading People with me Gerry Marais.
Speaker 2:This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others.
Speaker 1:Every other week I sit down with leading authors, researchers and practitioners for deep dive conversations about the strategies, insights and tools that drive personal and organizational success. And in between, I bring you one simple thing short episodes that deliver practical insights, and tips for immediate use.
Speaker 2:Whether you're here for useful tools or thought thought-provoking ideas, Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1:What does it take to be a supercharged leader? What benefits does being a supercharged leader bring, and do you know anyone who is a supercharged leader this week?
Speaker 2:leadership experts and best-selling authors Mandy Flint and Elizabeth Vinberg-Hearn join leading people to explore how great leaders don't just lead others, they lead themselves first.
Speaker 1:In this episode, you'll discover why self-leadership is the foundation of great leadership, how to manage your energy and state of mind for maximum impact, and the small but powerful changes that can transform your leadership effectiveness. If you're ready to take your leadership to the next level, then this is the conversation for you. Elizabeth and Mandy, welcome back to Leading People.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much.
Speaker 4:Yeah, good to be here.
Speaker 1:So you're back on the show because you recently published yet another book. I think it's your fourth, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, and we'll get to the new book in a minute. But first, even though you were on the show about two years ago now I think it was we have lots of new listeners since then, so that everybody out there can get to know you a little bit. How did you both get into the world of leadership development?
Speaker 4:well, elizabeth and I uh worked together in american express and we were really keen on leadership development there. We both came from a leadership role, so I myself ran a division and then went from that into thinking it's really, really intriguing how stuff gets done as well as what gets done. So how do we help people and leaders and executives really understand why it's so important to focus on behaviors and think about how they're doing stuff as well as what they're doing? And we really enjoyed doing that and got into it in a sort of rhythm, with a way of looking at it from a number of different perspectives. So we'd look at what's happening in the world, what's happening in the world, therefore, what's happening in business, therefore what's happening in leadership and that got really interesting and helping people with that. We found some great results and thought, oh, why not? Why don't we get into this in more depth? So moved out of running divisions and into helping others do that.
Speaker 3:And I would say as well I'd add to that that we've never been in HR, so we're not doing leadership development as an HR function, if you like. So we're really coming at it from being leaders ourselves and thinking about it, from how you lead people and business in a very sort of both strategic and operational way.
Speaker 1:And just taking your point then, before I get into my other questions, what is the difference that you notice between the way you've come into this versus maybe somebody coming in from a more classic training and learning and development background?
Speaker 4:I think what you do is is you. It's valuable to come from both angles, but I think from the being in a leader's seat, I always think of how practical and how can I use this as a leader. So if someone comes and talks to me, I think that's great, but day to day, practically, how am I going to put this into practice? How am I going to make this work? How does this sit and fit alongside the strategy for the business, the vision, the direction we're heading in, all of those things that we think about? Putting it alongside that. So sitting in the seat of that leader constantly to think how's it going to impact? What difference is it going to make?
Speaker 3:constantly to think how's it going to impact? What's difference is it going to make? Okay, sort of looking from the inside almost, it's almost like being insiders and coming at it from there, and, of course, in a lot of organizations we work with, that's obviously in in line with and with support from hr as well as relevant yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:so for our listeners benefit, we're going to tap into some of that as we go along, so stay tuned, everyone out there. So the latest book is called Supercharged Leader. Supercharged Leader. So what is Supercharged Leader all about and who did you write it for?
Speaker 3:all about and who did you write it for? Well, it's about what's needed for leaders to, to be good at, and focused at, and supercharging themselves with, in order to really deal with a never-changing world that's just continuously evolving and spinning, and a lot of leaders are overwhelmed, so we were really looking at what is it that people need? How do people charge themselves, tap into what they need to continue to develop in order to be able to deal with absolutely anything?
Speaker 1:okay, and so why did you write? Why did you write this book at this moment in time, and what are you trying to, or what is your goal with the book?
Speaker 4:So right now, we're both kind of leadership and cultural change strategists. So what that means is looking at the world and saying what's going on in the world, what are the future trends coming up? What does that do to business? Therefore, what does that do to leadership? And with the speed of change and transformation, increases that the need for shared leadership, for greater leadership, for more collective intelligence, globalizations, picking up speed, the whole, working from home, working from the office, the remote versus the need for psychological safety, organizational purpose. Why am I here? Why am I doing this?
Speaker 4:Ai and leadership, needing to be even more people focused, even in an AI world, is how do people, you know, if we think of all of that, then how do we help leaders get ready for that and actually, with AI, get ready for anything, so they don't know what the next thing could be. So, for example, when COVID came around, it fundamentally changed leadership. So what does that mean in terms of it fundamentally changed leadership. So people felt, you know, I had to suddenly learn how do I lead virtually everything that I do, and there was various levels of people already doing that, but then people had to shift very quickly and learn very quickly and they weren't ready for that and so't ready for that, and so being ready for anything. So we don't know what the next thing that could come up could be. Could be COVID. What is it? What is the next thing? So how do we equip people with evergreen leadership skills they need to be thinking about as these current and future trends drop into the world.
Speaker 1:OK, I think there's a lot of stuff there that I'm going to hopefully cover with you as we go through the next half an hour or so. I'm really curious, being a sort of linguist in my early career. Where did the title come from?
Speaker 3:It was.
Speaker 1:I mean, and you mean, the main title as in supercharged yeah, like, like, I mean the word leader I kind of get you know, but the other because I think that's kind of contextual there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, we have a subtitle as well on it, and that's why I just wanted to double check okay.
Speaker 1:Well, this is your moment, yeah, to do not just do titles, but you do subtitles as well. This is your big moment.
Speaker 3:I mean supercharged. What we really mean with that is that you can't run on empty as a leader in a fast-changing world. You have to continuously charge yourself up and you need to be supercharged. You need to be able to find the right things to focus on in order to be truly impactful and and therefore have almost injected yourself sort of with that energy. Almost that comes from the, the new skills or the mindset and the skill sets that will help you do that. So it's really saying it's almost like you need to go plug yourself into a new type of leadership so it's easy, and that and that that uh, that sub.
Speaker 4:You know that. That subtitle is develop your mindset and skill set to deal with anything. And when the publishers talked to us about that, we said, gosh, to deal with anything. That's a big thing to say, isn't it? And they said, yeah, but you are dealing them, you are getting them ready to deal with anything, because you don't know what's coming next and you're preparing them to prepare themselves to be ready for that.
Speaker 4:So a leader I was talking to recently was saying I don't know, the AI world is moving so fast. And they were in the banking tech industry and they were saying the world's moving so fast. I don't know how to help my team because I don't know what's coming next. So what do I do with that? And you know, well, I need to get them to. I'm the leader, but I'm not supposed to. I can't possibly know that. So how do I get the best from my people and use the collective intelligence in the team to do that? So what is it that I can be thinking about there? So I think, although we say that anything is the, is the is the title, you know we mean.
Speaker 1:Well, we mean anything and it's quite, it's quite a big statement, I think yeah, okay, um, I'm looking at my my sort of talking points and questions here and I have ai is a bit further down, so maybe we'll keep that one on the back burner for a few minutes because I think we can certainly explore that, because it's pretty much in the news at the moment. I'm not sure if the AI, maybe ChatGPT, is writing all the news stories. I'm not sure about that Self-promotion, I'm not sure, who knows.
Speaker 2:On Leading People. The goal is to bring you cutting edge thought leadership from many of the leading thinkers and practitioners in leadership today. Each guest shares their insights, wisdom and practical advice so we can all get better at bringing out the best in ourselves and others. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share a link with friends. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share a link with friends, family and colleagues, and stay informed by joining our leading people, linkedin, community of HR leaders and talent professionals.
Speaker 1:Let's get to this. You have six superchargers, so tell us about how you identified six, not five, not seven, and what sort of research did you do to identify these and formulate them.
Speaker 3:So our research that we've been going through is sort of operates on two levels. One of them is the work that we do, and we work with organizations all around the world in our two separate companies and at times we collaborate as well. But through the work that we're doing, we're constantly collecting data around what's going on out there, what are people doing, what challenges are they facing? Are there any differences between different industries and differences between countries, and all of that. And through that, as we started to collect, I mean, we're also obviously continuously ourselves doing research from other sources and looking at are there any recent data that's relevant, that can sort of validate some of our own findings? And that's really what we've done as we put this book together. So we basically put everything on the table. We said, okay, what are we seeing? What's going on out there, what are the trends in the world for people, and also what are the challenges that we can see the leaders have? And from that we started to see a pattern. There were some key trends that were coming out and we then, from that, started to say, okay, what are we actually seeing? And we came up that is sort of got summarized into these six superchargers and that the way they come up in the book has a certain order as well, because it's really talking about.
Speaker 3:So the first supercharger is strategy. I'm not going to run through them all now, but uh, and it's because strategy is almost like the first step. It has a natural order to say that in order to do anything, we first need to be strategic, so that we know in what context and for what purpose we're doing something, and then the other ones sort of flow from there, so they have a really nice flow together. And the idea is that once you start to engage with your super charges and really look look at, am I strategic enough, am I inclusive enough, and so on, and you start to really tap into that in your own leadership, then they also feed each other. So the more you do one thing, that starts to have a knock on effect on the next one, and the next one, and the next one. So it's almost like it becomes a spinning wheel when all of these sort of engage with one another, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:I think, mandy, you wanted to add something yeah and I think I just added that we also interviewed a number of CEOs along the way, in part of the research, to find out what they were thinking, to find out what they were thinking and it came out with the strategy inclusion, connectivity, collective intelligence being needing to use our collective intelligence because we can't possibly all know it ourselves or know it all, because the world's moving too fast. Another one of them is learning. So there's a great chapter on learning, because we almost have to learn, to learn again, to be in a constant learning mindset. And the last one is agility. You know the ability to be agile, but you still need to be able to stick to the strategy and the plan. So, as Elizabeth says, they kind of link together.
Speaker 4:But we also got some input from a number of CEOs on what they were seeing as coming up and you know, we also got them to reflect back on where. Where have we been and where are we now and where do you think we're heading? And some of those, some of those things are, as we said at the beginning, are evergreen. So some of them you need to constantly be looking at, but you also need to be looking at them if you are coming. If you are going to be thinking of what am I sticking my head up and looking at what's on the horizon and what we're finding, when people are busy and busy, and busy, and busy, and busy and busy, is that they tend to not take that step back and step up and look in that reflective space, that true reflective executive reflection, to step back to say where are we heading?
Speaker 1:And and you know we do, we do have those conversations frequently with people to say, well, if you're not doing it, it's a bit scary because who's doing it as a leader, so so, so you're kind of um, introducing or pre-empting some of the questions I have here, and I know I have to make a choice about which one I go to next.
Speaker 1:Um, because, elizabeth I think I'll come back to yours in a minute, liz, elizabeth because this whole idea of it being a system, which I think is what you were saying let's explore that in a minute or two Something that you wrote you sent me a little bit of a preview of the book and I went through it and something that you wrote and it's actually, I think, reflecting what you just said, mandy, towards the end there, which grabbed my attention.
Speaker 1:You, you kind of say leaders are just so busy with the day-to-day that they don't have time for many important things such as strategic thinking. Now, if I put myself in the shoes of a leader listening to this today, um, they might be going. How the hell am I going to find this extra time when I, my resources get more limited, my people are stretched, more people want connectivity with me, which you're advocating in the book. And you know, actually, unless you give me eight days in the week and add another 26, make them 26 hours long. I'm not sure. I know I need to be doing this right, but how am I going to do it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's such a fabulous question that's asked over and over again by all the people that Liz and I work with how am I going to get time to be strategic? And it's it's seeing that kind of importance of it. Why the big? Why? Why am I doing it? I'm so busy. I can't, I can't take time out to that and it's also how you see it, so some people will see it as right.
Speaker 4:I'm going to sit down in a corner and sit on my own and be really strategic in this corner and I've got to reflect and I don't really want to do that, I don't want to spend time doing that. And it's got to be authentic for you as a leader in the way that you operate. So what works best? If being authentic, if being strategic means to you sitting in a corner on your own thinking, then that's what you do. If it means engaging with someone else and having some dialogue and bouncing ideas, then it's that. It's whatever it means for you. But it's not saying that oh my God, you've got to change it to 80% of your time is in the strategic space and 20% of your time is in the non-strategic space. It's saying just turn up the dial on the amount of time you're doing it already. So, whatever you're doing already, turn the dial up and don't see it as an extra thing to do.
Speaker 4:Put it in as something that you what are you already doing that you could be thinking strategically about, because everybody always says I haven't got extra time to do it. Well then, if it's extra time, don't make it extra time. Put it in as what have I already got on my agenda and already got in that I need to be just spending some strategic space in it's, taking those things, the steps, rather than a massive leap. And some people may need to take a big leap, because some of the leaders we work with and some of the CEOs will say if you're not thinking about it, then who is? Who is spending that time? Your people need you to be spending time in that space. So it's not for you, it's for those people. Think about how much they would like you to be doing it, how much value they would say you're going to add to me if you do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what I would add to that is it's intended to save you time. So it's the whole idea of instead of just running around being busy, busy, busy, it's a question of taking a step back and being strategic and really thinking about the strategy, of what needs to happen next, what direction you're going in, being strategic about your leadership as well, and, rather than sort of trying to be everywhere for everyone, be really strategic and think about what's going on now, what's needed for you know what's the direction we're going in and therefore, what's needed right now. It's shaping that sort of carving out the time at regular intervals to be able to have that kind of conversation with yourself, or indeed, as Mandy says, together with other people. Wherever you do your best strategic reflection.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to a little bit bounce spontaneously listening to what you're both saying there. One of the things that strikes me because you mentioned it quite a bit at the early stage about this kind of VUCA world there's the whole AI thing, there's been the pandemic a few years ago and all of this would add up to one of the yeah, one of the you, the you and vuka, the uncertainty thing. But the brain doesn't like any of vuka. It kind of it'll set off that sort of fight or flight response. And I'm just wondering and you, I'd like you to comment on this with the virtual hybrid model that has emerged and all this stuff which is kind of probably creating a high alert status in people's mind, how many leaders are actually going back to worrying about?
Speaker 1:Are people doing what I want them to do and over-controlling situations, because it's not because it's a cognitive thing, it's because they're in neurology is saying, oh, you need to check. Just, you never know what's going to happen, and so they're spending more time in these operational spaces than they may need to. Like you probably say to the guys you don't need to do all of that stuff, you could step back. And how much of this are you seeing where, since the pandemic, the people aren't visible anymore in the office? In a lot of offices I know there's a big drive at this moment in time to get more people back to offices. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:There's I mean there's there's so much to say about that. A their leaders are obviously needing to trust people and to some degree, that's part of what this book is all about. How do you really connect with your people and with team and help people see the overall picture so that you can also start to trust people, because you have to be able to trust people in order for everything to work. But it's not just a question of say, okay, and now I'm going to trust everyone.
Speaker 3:There is a process to that. Of course. It's actually something that you, with your leadership, can do. But through your leadership as well and this is something we talk about in the book you need to communicate with people in such a way that they are not fearful or overwhelmed, which can be a challenge. But there's a lot we can do there. Do with that by understanding how the brain works and how we don't sort of throw people into fight or flight mode, but actually allow them to to have access to the brain chemicals that will allow them to do both critical and creative thinking, and that's a big part of the kind of leadership that's in the supercharged leader.
Speaker 4:And I would add there also what happens sometimes. As you said, it happens a lot when people can't see people. And you know what are you doing? Are you doing the thing? So you do get a lot of leaders who will move more towards the controlling element of that, and you know. So trust is a thing and you know letting go and saying you know what if you? Because what happens if you control that?
Speaker 4:And we work with many leaders saying, if you're controlling that, what you're doing is you're, you are taking away that person's ability to learn and grow because you're doing it for them or you're doing it so, so how? So if you think of it like that as a leader, think what value am I adding? At this point, over-controlling isn't adding a lot of value. So you know, so let go. And we're seeing more and more people learning to do that. But also you know, I think more people after the pandemic are having to learn to be a great leader.
Speaker 4:Self-leadership is a huge part of that. So your impact and the effect that you have minute by minute, day by day, second by second, is more important, even more important than it has been before. So that whole ripple effect, what are you creating, what impact does that have on the future? You play a huge part in that and so you can set the tone, set the culture by not over-controlling. And what does that create and what does that give and how much do people learn and grow with that and what's the part that you play and how much value are you adding Okay, I'm going to come to you in a minute, elizabeth.
Speaker 1:Um, uh, you're giving me so much rich stuff here that, uh, now that I have two people to work with on this, I, I, I because most one of the reasons I do this is and this is no secret is I. My guests are so brilliant. They feed me lots of great things I can bounce off. You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry Murray. My guests this week are leadership experts Elizabeth Vinberg-Hearn and Mandy Flint. Coming up next, mandy and Elizabeth share how to recognize when your leadership energy is low, why trust is the fuel for high-performing teams and the mindset shifts that separate good leaders from truly great ones. We also explore how leaders are responding to AI, and Mandy and Elizabeth have a special offer for you.
Speaker 2:So let's get back to our conversation.
Speaker 1:Self-leadership that's one of the kind of qualifiers for this podcast is how can you bring out the best in yourself and others? So leading people is not about leading everybody else, it's, first and foremost, how can you bring out the best yourself. So what would you say to leaders out there? Because if they can't get their own stuff sorted I was going to use a technical term, but they can't get their own shit sorted how are they going to sort out the shit of other people and the business and everything else? So what sorts of things are you teaching them or advising them to do to get that their own house in order?
Speaker 3:well, it's actually taking time and and reflecting on and saying it starts with me. It's not just what I do when I show up, it's how I show up, who I am, what kind of impact I'm having with others. So in order to lead effectively, I need to to lead myself effectively. So some of the things that we do there, there's a lot, and we've spent a lot of time in the self-leadership space to really help equip people that way. But it's really daring to look at ourselves and say what am I best at? What am I struggling with? How do I?
Speaker 3:For example, it can be as simple as imagine you're having a meeting and you're getting really frustrated because you're in a meeting with someone that you you just it was a bit of a conflict and you go out of that meeting and it can be online or it can be in in person and then you go straight into the next meeting and if you don't understand what that first frustration has brought into how you're feeling, you're going to walk right into the next meeting with that bristling, with that frustration, and you may not think that anyone else is picking that up, but there's going to be a ripple effect to to the next meeting, so it's a whole you went, you're going to contaminate the next exactly yeah, it's a good way of describing it um, this concept of states, um, states are contagious?
Speaker 1:yes, definitely. It's the first thing. If I'm working with somebody in a coaching capacity who isn't, let's say, managing their state well enough in terms of what's the appropriate state for that context. Um, one of the first things we work on is um, you, you, your state is going to affect the people around you, particularly if you're going to report with them, because they pick up it's energy essentially at the end of the day. So they're going to pick up on your vibe. Whether you're in a positive state, you know, positive mood, whatever you want to call it or you come in negative, it's going to affect everybody else around you. And some ladies lack the self-awareness they say how going to affect everybody else around you. And some leaders are lack the self-awareness. They say how come I just went into that media, came out that terrible meeting, going to this other meeting.
Speaker 4:It's just as bad because you took it you took it from one to the next and and I think that it makes me think really much about you know how leaders prepare for those things, like the state management, but rather than people, leaders prepare a lot for what do I need to do in this meeting, rather than how do I need to be in this meeting, spend so much time in that, yeah, that I could probably do that standing on their head.
Speaker 4:It's the to be bit, that's the you know. So if I and I'll say to some of them are really in a hurry, I'll say, look, even if you just take a breath between one meeting to the next, and to you that seems like if someone, if someone's really fast moving, you can hardly say to them stop, think about it for a minute. It's like, just take a breath, that'll, that'll do. Just do that to give you chance to move to the right state. Because how do these people need you to be and how do you need to be? And I think that's such a simple thing. You know, how do you need to be, not what you need to do and the interesting thing linking to that is that it's almost like at every.
Speaker 3:Every time you have an interaction with someone and it's a negative one, and this is true in any kind of constellations. But it can be particularly relevant to look at from a team perspective. It's almost like a bank account that you have together and if you had a negative experience with someone, you need to have three and a half positive experiences to make up for the negative one, which means that if you don't know how many of these negative ones you you create, it might be a really long way back to to get back to some kind of a good balance.
Speaker 4:That's another reason why self-leadership is so important yeah and yeah, and that ripple effect you said, you know, like leading yourself, self-leadership is really at the core of all of it, which is, you know, as you say, part of your podcast, but the leading self, you know, one of the things we talk about in the book is that it starts with leading yourself, then it's about leading your people, then it's leading the business, then it's leading the teams within that, then it's leading the transformation and fast-paced change that comes with that and leading the culture. So they all link together and if you do a route map on that, it all comes back to oh, where does it start? It starts with me. So it's that really, once you get that, once people get that, they really can fly, because they get the fact that this ripple effect is starting with me and it's coming back to me, and you'll create that culture, whether you're paying attention to it or not. And I think that's, um, that's what we talk a lot about as well.
Speaker 1:we talk about the cultural effect, okay so, um, I'm going to take a lot of that now, what you said and I'm going to. I mean, I, I like you, I, I like to read a lot and have an extensive book collection over here. What about middle managers in all of this? Some of the most recent stuff that's come out from McKinsey and from Gallup about? You know, the downsizing movement? Remember the re-engineering movement way back 25 years or so ago?
Speaker 4:um, we do we do.
Speaker 1:You might have been re-engineered as part of it, and and the all the craze in the 90s around that. And then, um, there was this idea that well, we don't need middle managers. I mean, organizations can be flattened, and mckinsey, the book that they wrote it's the more recent of the two um, they're really pushing this idea that middle managers have a real important role in translating and and and you go back to overwhelm and an awful lot of middle managers feel like the, the cream and the cake. They're're getting squeezed, just going everywhere and they're trying to keep all these people happy and they're trying to, you know, defend the cause. You know the stand up for what the organization stands for, but they feel that they're not getting the support. What have you been discovering as you, because you're probably working with some of these middle managers who are transitioning to what they tend to call senior leadership roles what are you learning from meeting those people and what can you say to those people out there listening to this podcast?
Speaker 3:Well, of course, we see leaders at all levels and the middle managers.
Speaker 3:They are indeed, as Mackenzie said, very, very important, and all the things that we talk about in the book is just as important for them as for anyone else, you know, and because it's got to do with career progression, of course, but also because, ultimately, the greatest impact on employees is from the immediate leader.
Speaker 3:Employees is from the immediate leader. So, for that reason, leaders that are somewhere in the middle there need to become really good at managing expectations in all directions, because I think often the problem for middle managers is that, as you say, they feel squeezed from both ends, and one of the reasons for that is also that there are often very mixed expectations from different directions within an organization. So leaders, by becoming more effective self-leaders as well, be able to understand and question and clarify what the expectations are, so that they can start to manage expectations more effectively. And this is quite a big topic. We could probably expand a lot more on that, but all the whole ideas of creating the kind of mindset and skill set that you need to be able to deal with anything is something that can very much strengthen this middle layer as well.
Speaker 4:And this middle layer. I think what happens there is that they have they're a part of many teams and I think that becomes, you know that matrixing of teams whether that's the right word or not, I don't know, but you're a part of many teams and in that middle they then have a sort of transportable team skillset that they have to take from team to team. And what we say to them is just really think about what's your role in this team? I don't mean your job, I mean what's your role in this team, in this particular team that you're operating in at the moment, so in this particular team that you're functioning, in this particular team that you're a part of right now, and how are you leading that, what part are you playing in that and what part could you play and what part could you play that would help support or add value to that.
Speaker 4:And I think the other thing that we're seeing a lot of now and we're doing a lot of work on is igniting that peer-to-peer interaction, because there's a lot more in that middle management phase of the more people open up to the peer-to-peer part of that, the more they learn, the more they develop, the more they grow, because they start to think in the middle layer. They tend to think, oh, I'm gonna lead up, I'm gonna lead my boss, I'm gonna manage my boss and I'm gonna lead my people. They don't necessarily think about that that group in the middle themselves, as a really good set of learning from their peers and developing with their peers and that becoming so fundamental in that middle management layer and support as well.
Speaker 3:I would say they have, can have support from each other if they truly look at each other as as that strong force that they can actually make their own situation more enjoyable, even.
Speaker 1:You mentioned transportable skill set and I have a question here relating to the way you present the six superchargers again as a system and what some of the, the key skills that underpin the, the concepts and mindsets that you're talking, the six mindsets or concepts, uh and I'm thinking about this idea of red thread, you know fil rouge skill sets, that sort of transversal skill sets what are some of this, that, those fundamental skills that you? You say well, regardless of where you are on the six dimensions, you really need to have these.
Speaker 3:One of the key ones and I think a lot of it starts from there is the ability to see the bigger picture and to see the interconnection.
Speaker 3:So that whole idea of really being able to understand the bigger picture and to see the interconnection, so that whole idea of really being able to understand the systems that you operate within. It's so easy to become very sort of tunnel visioned and saying I'm focusing on this, my team and we're doing this, and it becomes a bit like this You're really just looking straight ahead and the importance of understanding what piece are we in the bigger jigsaw when we do something here, what happens here, the whole idea of really starting to think about the knock-on effect and again how things, just really everything we do matters, and sometimes that can almost feel overwhelming, but actually that's also a promise of how great things can be, because the more we understand that and the more we start to explore what are the connections that we have with other groups and other areas or the outside world, because with that that gives you a better understanding and also therefore more strengths to take on anything really that comes your way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the challenge also with the big picture is, as you create a bigger picture it does become overwhelming because it becomes more vague and more.
Speaker 1:There's less specificity in a big picture than when you're looking at it from a distance, and so people have to understand where their their boundaries are, on how far they can know those edges of where their big picture is, and so my big picture might be somebody else's detail, like if I'm head of finance, my big picture might be the ceo's specificity in this right and I'm, you know. So it's understanding the boundaries of big pictures. And actually I think personally and this is just my personal view, and the poor man is dead, I mean a lot of people didn't like him, but uh, he did do some great things. Steve jobs, I think, had one of the most amazing abilities to go from big picture, put a dent in the universe, down to fussing about a little piece of plastic that sat on a, on a wire, on a on a, you know, on a head headset thing, and said he sent it back, I think 35 or 40 times. He said it just isn't right that.
Speaker 1:You know, that's a quite an impressive, impressive skill set to be able to go, when it's appropriate, really big yeah and big often inspires because people can find their place in big and then being able to go right down and say but I'm still looking at the specificities of what makes the system work.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think with that you know to be able to do that, that thinking go up, you know, go big picture, go to detail.
Speaker 4:And I think you know, in doing that, sometimes that's really obvious to the person who's doing that, but it's not so obvious to everyone around.
Speaker 4:So I think, being you know we have to work with leaders to say, be more intentional about helping other people.
Speaker 4:See some of the steps that you made between that massive big picture and that you know that little piece of detail and join the dots, add the red thread, get, help people connect those dots and make the links, cause I think that's another thing that people can get it again, it'll be different for different people in the way that they do it, but make the links and connections for people because it's so obvious to you and when you have a natural beautiful strength that you do yourself, it's so obvious you don't know how you do it.
Speaker 4:So sometimes you know, I know, I have in my head that if I, if I'm screaming in my head oh, my god, that's so obvious um, then I have to say to myself hang on a second, is that a screaming strength that you've got, that they haven't necessarily got? So now, how do you articulate that to build the connection for them, because they may not be able to see that massive big picture and then right, let's jump from there to there, but actually take them along that path. So I think we often do that by not necessarily acknowledging our own strengths to do that.
Speaker 1:I just want you remind me of. I've been involved in a high potential program with an organization since 2007. So we're taking people who are successful individual contributors, who are now going to be, and one of the things they really struggle with is that they're rewarded for being systematic and very focused and very much in their frame of reference and they they've come to this, they've rose in sort of, let's say they've come to prominence as being good at their job. Yeah, and some of them kind of, I've noticed can adjust to the big picture.
Speaker 1:A lot of them find it really difficult because their world has been defined by somebody else is doing big picture. They tell me where I fit in. I just do my job, and so what's your experience of of loosening that up for people? Because it is so fundamental, because if you can't, it's not just about being able to see the big picture, it's about being able to tolerate and work within, yeah, the all the, because that's VUCA. You know VUCA is the kind of indeed, let's say, downside of the big picture, but it is a world that you start to have to inhabit, where things are not clear anymore, some things are not certain.
Speaker 3:You know lots of ambiguity and it takes a reset, almost you have to rethink everything that you knew about the world. But you could put it as well not not quite as big as that, maybe, but one of the the challenges that a lot of people experience as they progress through their career and they go into more senior roles is that they tend to often fall back to habits of their previous roles because they are comfortable there. They've done that a lot of time and therefore it almost goes. It's almost a little bit like an autopilot and anything that's different to that. Whether that, then, is really looking at an unpredictable world with curiosity and joy may not be the most obvious thing to do, so it takes specific focus and action to get to there. Amanda, you want to add to that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was just going to say I think it takes one of my favorite chapters in the book, if I'm allowed to. It's a bit like children you're not allowed to have a favorite chapter. But I've got one Learning and it's about the learning. You know your ability to learn and to continue to learn and you know having creating a culture of learning, but I mean letting people not the whole, let people fail. I mean really creating a culture where you're learning.
Speaker 4:You have a mindset, people are curious, you have your curiosity, there's a drive to learn, but it also means it starts with us and I think sometimes people it's like that how coachable are you? So sometimes, when people get to a certain level, people think they're not coachable, although they are coachable, but because they kind of normally do have the answer and they know the answer. So people think, oh, they're not, really are they? Can you coach them or are they coachable? That whole coachability thing, not because that's their intention, but because they just do know. By that point they know.
Speaker 4:So it's taking that and really you know how coachable are you and do you need to learn to learn again or show people that you can learn again and share your wisdom with people and have those kind of constant conversations. So, elizabeth and I in the book we're on a campaign whether it's just the two of us or not, I don't know to stop the word feedback. We want to change the word feedback and just call it constant conversations. Now why do we need to have feedback? It's like we should just be having these conversations all the time.
Speaker 3:It's not just about you know, when you get to an appraisal time or something, it's actually having the conversation as we go along and that's part of learning there's also almost a trap in being an expert, and I think you the more senior you become, the more you often become known for being an expert in a field you're very experienced. So people sort of turn to you and, even if it's not intentional, a lot of leaders then think, therefore, I should be able to just do this now. So it's. It's actually also part of being a supercharged leader is to be so strong that you dare to be humble and say okay, I I'm very happy to listen to what you've got to say.
Speaker 1:I don't have all the answers and that's okay, but that might go against what you actually really are used to if that makes sense, there was a sort of question formulating in my head and you kept feeding it, so I'm going to ask it um, how do you deal with the situations? Because you talk a lot here about the learning and the failure and various other aspects of that. We talk about trust and that, but in some leadership teams there's a lot of posturing going on and a lot of I don't want to look weak in with my peers, because you mentioned peers earlier in that. Um, and one of the things I'm always curious about with whether it's a senior team or any type of team is I spend the first 90 minutes doing some very light stuff because they think I'm just doing these kind of icebreakers.
Speaker 1:I'm actually trying to measure the psychological safety aspect in the room, see who actually is comfortable being themselves, volunteering information without checking and looking, who's posturing, who's trying to get one up on somebody else, et cetera. And the reason I ask the question is because you know I was chatting to somebody from great places to work recently and that'll be another podcast episode and you mentioned it yourselves earlier. Trust is fundamental and walking the talk, you know this is what people are looking for from their leaders, but if they can't sort that out at their own level. And the Japanese phrase the fish rots from the head. How do you get that message across to people that you know they've got to lighten up and loosen up themselves amongst themselves, right?
Speaker 3:To be able to be vulnerable, to be humble, whatever it is you want them to be. That's a whole podcast in itself. It's almost like where do we start with our one.
Speaker 1:It's obviously. You know those little, the dutch call them happiest. You know the aperitif, you know the little little, uh, finger food. You get the amuse girl, the french call. You know, give us the that version of it. What would be a couple of things that that you've? You've noticed that kind of help. The leaders feel more comfortable with each other and they don't have to be the best in the room would be a couple of things that that you've? You've noticed that kind of help. The leaders feel more comfortable with each other and they don't have to be the best in the room again it happens.
Speaker 3:It's a question of them actually getting together and knowing each other and becoming very clear about how do we, how do we lead together? Um, as in how do we? We're not just responsible for our division or our area, our space, but ultimately, as a leadership team, we're all ultimately responsible for what happens to the business. So it's a question of starting to talk about it, helping them to think about their reflection as a team and yeah and and there I think, helping them with that really knowing each and diversity being beyond what we know today.
Speaker 4:But it's about difference in style, difference in not just about what we understand diversity to be today, but in the future it's going to be about style differences. So, you know, really using strengths and differences in a way in a team that works, and if I know that you're really good at that and I can rely on that, then how can I you know I might not have that how can we do that together? So, getting that feeling of that and having some fun in a team, I think that's really important. We spend so much time in teams, yet the simple thing is we don't have, are we allowed to have fun? Can we have fun? How do we have fun?
Speaker 4:It's not like we have to have fun at four o'clock this afternoon, it's it's. How do we build that into our way of being as a team and sharing with each other and being open, um and and do something so we don't think all think alike, we haven't got group think going on, because if you've got people who are saying in a team where it's a little bit, why can I say that can't? I say that it's normally because people are. You know, there could be some differences, or it could be that everyone's just doing a whole group think and we're all thinking the same and actually who's doing the different thinking. So you know how do you bring that into it and making sure that you're you're celebrating things it occurred to me that in Sweden, at four o'clock in the afternoon they have fika, don't they?
Speaker 1:and then you all have fun yeah, it's actually a requirement we need more fika in our um in our leadership program so it's hey guys, we need to stop now. We need to go have the cake and coffee and the tea and stuff.
Speaker 1:It's beneficial for everyone so the last big topic which we had at the beginning and everybody's been waiting and waiting to get to this topic which we touched on and we're coming back to. There's a lot of hype out there about AI, and I mean to the point where it's actually quite overwhelming the type of hype and now it used to be like did you see the match on Saturday? Now it's like have you used ChatGPT? Yet you know you had a cocktail party or whatever. Are you using it? How do you find it? You know you're the cocktail party or whatever. Are you using it? How, how do you find it, you know? So what's your take on ai and its impact on how organizations will be led in the future?
Speaker 3:Well, we're all on a learning journey when it comes to AI and when it comes to leadership. It's also a question of thinking about being strategic about AI and thinking about what is really AI, what does it mean for us, what does it mean for our people and therefore, how do we create an ethical, healthy AI that actually is useful for everyone and where we can really also use the collective intelligence with the machine intelligence and the human intelligence? So it's really for leaders to become really clued up and not just we're using chat GBT it's much bigger than that. So it becomes, because I know that sometimes some of the practical things are easier to get into, but as leaders, it's really important to have leaders at all levels understand the whole opportunity and some of the challenges with ai. So it needs to be an intentional learning journey for everyone within the organization, but it really starts with the leaders you use the term clued up.
Speaker 1:Um, how clued up are the leaders that you're meeting? I mean it's it's. The challenge with all these terms is that people throw them around and they form a reference point even without even trying them out. And you know chat, gpt I use it because it's the kind of topical one. We know that there's a lot more in a ai enabled tools out there. Even they've been there for quite some years behind the scenes doing lots of little automations and things like that. But how, how clued up are our people at the moment?
Speaker 4:well, I think people are clued up as they can be at the point. They're aware, and that's why I think the learning thing comes in, because you know. Again, talking to so many leaders saying I'm actually really afraid of this, I don't know how it's going to go, I don't know what's going to happen next to the business, I don't know and I'm quite fearful, but I don't I said it earlier, I don't know how to lead my team through that. And it's like you need to get back to some of the points we talked about. You've got to use the collective intelligence because you can't do it on your own. You can still lead without knowing the answer, and I think that's the fearful thing for leaders is I don't know the answer to this and none of us know the answer. Who knows where it's going to go?
Speaker 4:But being okay with that, being okay that you don't know where it's going to go and you don't know how it might come out and you don't know what that might play, but you do know that there will always be a human interaction part at some point around it and therefore you'll be needed to make that connection at some point. So you can do that and I think what it does is. It does affect, like personal and team self-esteem. So you have to go to you know our self-esteem's eroding because we don't know. We're feeling uncomfortable and not confident about this. So how do we rebuild our own self and team self-esteem to? To build to say it's okay that we don't know this answer? Let's just we've all got to learn to work with this and I think that's where that's where it's a real, can be a real challenge for leaders to not know that you know you've disappointed me now, mandy, because I thought I found the answer last night.
Speaker 1:Tell us it was 42, like it always has been. You know, no, I mean it is true. And look at I I suppose, the other challenges out there is. You know, I listen to a lot of stuff around AI, in the world of HR and the world of HR tech and that, and sometimes I go and come away from it thinking, oh my God, when it's almost like trying to cross the autobahn in Germany or the motorway, like it's kind of going, how am I going to get across this street? And sometimes I I try and use this zooming out thing which is to go. You know, when you think of it, um, whilst it's happening and it's got, it's almost got its own legs, because that's kind of the worrying part about what how many legs will it have? And it it's, it's sort of an exponential impact in some sectors. There's also the other business side to this, which is it's it's sort of an exponential impact in some sectors. There's also the other business side to this, which is it's potentially very risky on many levels.
Speaker 1:It's going to require huge investments. It requires massive change management like you've never known before. Like think of what used to happen when people got their powerpoint software upgraded and they complained for weeks about it. You know, and and said, oh my God, these Microsoft guys have changed the features again. I have to go on a training, and that you remember those days. And so this stuff's going to come at us.
Speaker 1:And you know, I read a very interesting article recently where the person writing it because of course the knowledge worker world is where a lot of the AI seems seems to it's not going to come in and paint your house for you.
Speaker 1:I mean that that's kind of reassured for a while anyway. But the commentator said well, you're actually less likely to lose a job to ai than to lose a job to somebody who's using ai. And more and more I'm hearing the real power of AI is going. You know there's an awful lot of talk about agents in the workplace. You know AI-based agents which are going to help us be more efficient at what we do, and the actual dream of a lot of people it goes back to some of your starting point here is it will free up a bit more of that time to maybe, if we take advantage of of it, to do a bit more thinking, because we're going to have to be very cerebral about how we use these tools. That's where the new skill sets are starting to emerge. Are you hearing leaders talking like that, or am I living in my echo chamber?
Speaker 3:I think there are a lot of leaders that are constantly going around thinking, thinking about some of this, uh. But to some degree, that's also why we have written this book, because this book is all about. You will be overwhelmed at times and you might think I don't know where we are at this and it's overwhelming and I don't know what to do with it. But it's the mindset and therefore the skill sets that goes into this book that really helps you to take a step back and say it's okay, I'm not gonna know everything, it's all right, but if I look for opportunities, if I really connect with other people, if I dare put my guard down and really learn from other people and really having those kind of creative conversations and think it's okay to take in new information and all of that, then actually we're going to find a solution.
Speaker 3:So it's really intended to be this kind of when you're in those moments, there will be something for you to read in in this book. Even that will help you to to take a step back a little bit, like we talked about earlier. You talked about zooming in and zooming out, and I think that's the key to a lot of this. At any given time you're sometimes too much in the details and you need to zoom out and look more big picture and if you're overwhelmed in the big picture, then you zoom in and you focus in on something that helps you get a little bit more tangible again. So it's the ability to do that really go from from one extreme to another.
Speaker 4:That is another way of helping with this and I think your your point earlier about you said it was, you know, managing your state. You know you've got to manage your state in this because it can become a frenzy that people give you information and it's overwhelming and it's another one of those. You know what? There's always going to be human to human in all of this. So you know, I mean I'm saying that, I'm hoping it's. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not seeing so far ahead what could that look like. But you know there's going to be a form of human to human in it. So take that, take that aspect of it and think about how that can fit together, because otherwise it just can be overwhelming. And I think it's just comfortable being comfortable to say do you know what, doesn't matter what happens, I can handle that. You know, I'll take it, I'll handle it. And putting yourself in a state of that state, getting yourself in that right state. Back to your point earlier.
Speaker 1:Ok, so the six superchargers foundational stuff for for whatever the future going to throw at us. So, coming to the end, uh, there always has to be an end. So, coming to the end, uh, what are a couple of key site, key insights that you'd like our audience to take away from this conversation?
Speaker 4:so I I'll just talk a couple um the reflection time and space. You need to hit the pause button to be able to look backwards and look forwards, being strategic about your leadership. You have a strategy for your business, your team, your department. Have a strategy for your leadership as well. Be a great self-leader. Self-leadership is, you know your impact has a ripple effect. What are you creating? What impact does that have on the future and how you react, behave and respond to new things like ai, no one can predict everything, so how you react and respond to that is important, but still remain to be inclusive and use your collective intelligence to do that and just a quick extra dimension to this.
Speaker 1:If you are listening to this podcast as a new leader, somebody starting out on the leadership journey, what would you say to that person who's, in some ways, they may have an advantage because they haven't got all the baggage or, you know, or maybe not? What would you say to somebody out there who's early stage leader?
Speaker 3:I would say um, enjoy it. You know, well done for choosing to, to want to be a leader. Enjoy the journey. It's going to be. It's going to be challenging and it's going to be fun. And that's how it's supposed to be. You know, it's not. It's not just going to be the sunshine all the time, but also be your own best leader, because a lot of the time people try to maybe copy what someone else is doing, and that's where self-leadership comes in. The more you understand yourself, the more you understand what your unique leadership qualities are that you can really use in your leadership, because you are going to be your best leader when you tap into who you are and also remember and this is one of the quotes from the book that being 100% perfect, 100% of the time is 100% impossible. So don't go into it thinking I'm going to have to get everything right here because no one does.
Speaker 1:And that's a great thought to end our conversation. How do people get in touch with you and do you have anything special to offer my listeners today?
Speaker 3:so you can. You can find us on linkedin, so mandy flint, my colleague over there, and elizabeth winberg, hern but the easiest thing might be to just google the book supercharged leader. There's only one with that name out there, um, so, and so you can contact us on linkedin. It's a good way of doing it. Uh, we also have a shared website for the books that's called 2020visionleadercom, so that's also a good, good place to go for a lot of different resources. But we're also we wanted to say that, uh, for the first four people who contact both of us on linkedin and ask to connect, uh, the first four listeners that contact both of us we yeah, we're going to be sending you a signed copy of the book wherever you are in the world okay, and I'll put links in the show notes.
Speaker 1:And, as as ever, elizabeth and Mandy, thanks for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.
Speaker 4:Great, thank you. It's been real fun to join you.
Speaker 3:Indeed. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 5:A lot of people get to the C-suite able to manage much more those lower levels of details that you just described. So they're comfortable in that space and they'll spend a lot of time there and they'll occasionally go up to what you're describing, that back and forth. The invitation through my book is to kind of although I don't use this model, this framework you just described, it makes tremendous sense. The invitation is to step into areas that are less comfortable than when they were younger, because there are new areas that are developing. But because they're new they're going to feel uncomfortable. So it's kind of playing more at that big picture area as opposed to really being comfortable at the detail. If they can bounce around between them and all that laterally, that's just fantastic.
Speaker 1:Next time, on Leading People, we're joined by executive coach and author Anis Haddad to explore what truly changes in leadership as we move into midlife. In his latest book, soaring Beyond Midlife, anis challenges the idea that aging is about decline, revealing how leaders in their 40s and 50s develop new leadership superpowers. He explains why embracing ambiguity, letting go of unnecessary details and trusting emerging strengths can make you an even more impactful leader. If you're curious about how leadership evolves over time, you won't want to miss this episode. And remember, before our next full episode, there's another One Simple Thing episode waiting for you, a quick and actionable tip to help you lead and live better. Keep an eye out for it wherever you listen to this podcast. Until next time.
