Why We’re Not As Self-Aware As We Think We Are

Most leaders believe they’re self-aware.

Research suggests otherwise.

Studies indicate that while the majority of us think we understand how we show up, only a small percentage are accurately perceived that way by others. And under pressure — in uncertainty — those blind spots don’t stay hidden.

• They shape our decisions.
• Our relationships.
• Our leadership.

In this episode of Leading People, Gerry Murray speaks with researcher and author Dr Julia Carden about why self-awareness is far rarer than we assume — and why it matters most in uncertain environments.

We explore:

• Why other people’s perceptions of us don’t update as quickly as we think
• What makes feedback useful rather than threatening
• The role of identity and ego in leadership blind spots
• Why self-acceptance is a quiet but powerful leadership strength
• And how self-awareness builds adaptive capacity in unstable times

If you’ve ever wondered why capable, intelligent leaders can still get in their own way — this conversation will give you language, research, and practical insight to reflect on your own leadership.

Curious?

Listen in — and notice what you'll discover about yourself

Check out the Leading People programmes

Connect with Julia on LinkedIn

Visit Julia's Website

Buy the book

Follow

Leading People on LinkedIn

Leading People on FaceBook

Connect with Gerry

Website

LinkedIn

Wide Circle

Transcript

Welcome And Why Uncertainty Exposes Us

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Leading People with me, Jerry Murray. This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others. Every other week, I sit down with leading authors, researchers, and practitioners for deep dive conversations about the strategies, insights, and tools that drive personal and organizational success. And in between, I bring you one simple thing: short episodes that deliver practical insights and tips for immediate use. Whether you're here for useful tools or thought-provoking ideas, leading people is your guide to better leadership. When things start to feel uncertain, I often notice something interesting. Most leaders don't step back, they step in. They try to bring more control, more certainty, more conviction. But what if the real risk and uncertainty isn't the situation, it's the parts of ourselves that we can't see. Research suggests we're far less self-aware than we believe, and in unstable or uncertain environments, those blind spots don't stay hidden, they shape our decisions, our relationships, and our leadership. In this episode of Leading People, I'm joined by Dr. Julia Cardin to explore why we're not actually as self-aware as we think we are, and why that matters most when conditions feel uncertain. Julia is a leading researcher in the field and we talk about identity, ego, defensiveness, feedback, and what really happens to leaders under pressure. In my own work, I often refer to adaptive capacity, our ability to stay open, steady, and flexible and effective during times of instability and uncertainty. My conversation with Julia explores one of the foundations of that capacity, self-awareness. So if you've ever wondered why intelligent, capable leaders can still get in their own way, this one's for you. Julia Cardin, welcome to leading people.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Oh, thank you for having me here today, Jerry.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So, Julia, uh your name came up in a recent webinar, uh, a neuroscience webinar with uh Professor Patricia Ridgell and uh Ian McDermott, and uh uh somebody was sharing your references to your material, and and Patricia said, Oh yeah, Julia does great work. And so I checked you out, bought the book, and here we are today. Thank you. So to get us started, Julia, uh, before we talk about your book, which came out in 2025, so it's it is a new book then. Um please share with me and my listeners the journey that led you to where you are today. And were there any like epiphany moments along that journey?

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Oh gosh, big question to start with. Um, I like to summarize it by using an advert that's used over here, which says born in the Royal Navy, born in Cornwall, made in the Royal Navy. So I was born and brought up in Cornwall, and my first job out of university was uh to become a Royal Naval Officer. Um, so spent 10 years in the Royal Navy, and towards the end of that time, I specialised in working in the Admiralty Interview Board, which is an assessment centre for all naval and royal marine officers, and that got me into learning and development through that route. Uh through various other roles. After that, I ended up setting up my own business in 2008. And I think you say epiphany moments, I like to think about crucible moments, those moments which perhaps change forever. The Navy definitely did that for me, but also setting up my own business. I'd always been in a secure, paid environment, getting a monthly paycheck, and all of a sudden running your own business, it it um certainly jiggled things up. Uh and what got me to the book was through doing a PhD, which I know we're going to come come on to.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Okay, and so the business you set up was uh what was it focused on?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

So focused on leadership development uh and still doing at that time some assessment centre work because I became known for that over the years and I had specialized in it. I transitioned out of the assessment centre work more into the development work because you get to work with people over a longer period of time and assessment centres can you just see them for a little bit of time and you don't get to really connect with them.

Who The Book Is For And Why Now

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, and you probably see the development areas and you can't do much about it because they're just being evaluated either for uh taking into a company or for promotion or something within a company, isn't that right? Yeah. Okay, absolutely so the book is called quite a provocative title in some ways. You are not as self-aware as you think you are. So, Julia, who is this book for and why now?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

So the book's for leaders predominantly, but it could also be for people that are doing executive coaching, and it could be for anybody who's interested in self-awareness. Why now? I finished my PhD, which investigated and explored self-awareness a few years ago, and I didn't want it sitting on the shelf gathering dust. I also wanted to write a book that was very practically and very accessible for busy, busy leaders, so they didn't have to get too tied up in the academia of it all. Um, and so why now? And writing a book is a little bit of a narcissistic activity, of course, it's very self-indulgent. Um, I felt last year was the time to push myself and and have a go at writing, and that's that's why now.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Very good. Um I think I I can share that experience. I've been busy drafting myself recently, and um I'm not sure, but I suppose it has a certain narcissistic, I suppose that you have to have some sense of it's going to be about you and something that you can tell the world. But at the same time, and every author I've spoken to privately about this, say, you know, it's one of those classic questions, you want to write a book, are you sure? You want to get into the work that goes into writing one of these things? Um so self-awareness, uh, you break it down into two main components, which then each have their own subset of components. And before we explore your model, because you've written a nice little model in the book which helps people unify the content, uh, what are the reasons why people think they are more self-aware than they actually are? And I think you have a few examples, if I'm not mistaken, from the book itself where people say, Well, I'm really self-aware, and then you've kind of pointed out through some coaching or whatever, that maybe they're not. So for anybody out there who's going, I'm self-aware, I don't need to listen to this. Stay tuned, right, Julia. What is it that uh how some what are some of the kind of common uh sort of errors that people make in terms of thinking about their self-awareness? If this conversation resonates and you're reflecting on your own leadership capacity, you might find our team leader essentials and performance accelerator programs very helpful. Both are designed to help leaders strengthen the inner skills that drive outer performance, especially in uncertain and fast-moving environments. You'll find more details at widecircle.eu. That's w-i-de, c ircle.eu. Check out the link in the show notes.

The Myth Of Being “Very Self-Aware”

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Well, the title for the book actually came from uh leader. I was working with his team members actually, and it became really evident to me over a period of time that it wasn't the individuals in the team I should be coaching, but him. And when I was having a conversation with him, and I just sort of challenged him a little bit on who challenged him on his thinking, he his reply to me was I'm extremely self-aware, Julia. I don't need any coaching. And in that moment, of course, I knew he wasn't. And the reason I say I know he wasn't is because self-awareness is not um a finite thing, it's not something you can develop and that's it. It's a dynamic, ever-evolving construct that ebbs and flows. So we're always evolving in terms of self-awareness. So that's the first reason I say we're not self-aware as we think we are, because of this ever evolutionary dynamic construct. The second reason I say we're not as self-aware as we think we are is because most people don't even know what it is. I I thought I knew what it was when I started my research. It was only when I kept started investigation that I found it had not been defined academically within the context of leadership development and adult development. And the third reason is you talk about the interpersonal components, how are we in relationship with others? Well, very rarely do we really know how other people are perceiving and receiving us. They might give us some feedback, but they will give us that feedback based on their map of the world and their filters. And so for us to really get a grip of that and for us to even hear it and receive it in a way that we can process it is really challenging. So that's why we're never as self-aware as we think we are. And the title is provocative and confrontative. And I know some people find it challenging. My invitation, though, is once you start exploring it, it can be a fulfilling journey. It can be a challenging journey as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, so what I'm hearing quite clearly here, and it's it it comes up in many, many sort of things around anything to do with developing yourself, is uh the all this development or even the self-awareness, it's it's a journey, it's never a destination. That's that's probably the most leadership is also a journey. It's uh it's not a destination, it's uh it there are leadership moments along the way, there are performance moments along the way. Uh any leader who says, Well, I've arrived is probably arrived in the wrong place, maybe. Yeah, yeah. And and I I yeah, and and I've I I've had those situations where I've been asked personally to do team building, teamwork, and the first person I want to talk to is the boss, you know. Um and it'd be surprising how often their gatekeeper says, No, no, he's very busy, you know, or something like that. And then you find out you have that conversation, and I had even one guy once said to me, he said, Well, you just do the teamwork and I'll watch. And I said, No, you won't. If I'm going to do the teamwork, you're in the team, you're going to take part. Uh, because his whole idea was that they were broken and he knew he was the only one that knew and so we come across this a lot. And actually what I've noticed is uh with some of those team leaders who who tell you the story about the broken team, and then when they get actually in the session and they take part in some of the exercises, I've had a situation where they're the first to give feedback to the room, which sometimes is unusual because they don't tend to be the first people to talk about the experience. But I've had some leaders go, that was amazing. I I I just that blew my mind because I didn't realize I actually realize I don't know my people, and they're all sitting there, and and and that can be an aha moment of monumental proportions for somebody.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

100%. And also I just wonder how well those leaders know themselves to assume that the team is broken, but they're not. I mean, that's just fascinating.

Why Self-Awareness Drives Leadership Under Pressure

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Well, it's the it's the tango analogy, isn't it? It's like who's who's standing on whose toes, basically. Uh so why why is self-awareness so important to leadership? We've kind of got into this uh aspect of it. Before we get into the the the components and the definition, why is it so important to leadership?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Well, who you are is how you lead. So if you don't know who you are and what your DNA is, and when I mean DNA, I'm not meaning so much the biological DNA, but all those bits that make up who you are, then you're not gonna know how how you're really leading. And also your unconscious reactions under stress or when you're triggered or hooked are going to come out. And I think about it like um John Whittington, who writes a book about systems and constellation, uses the a metaphor of a peacock. And, you know, when we think about the peacock's tail and it's all fully displayed, that's all of the stuff of who we are, our values, our beliefs, our history, our needs, etc. And we go into our lead our teams with that peacock tail. Um, and they come in with us. So we need to understand what's in that peacock tail because that's what everybody else is seeing, even if we're not aware of it. But more importantly, I think the more we get to know ourselves and understand that peacock tail, we can manage ourselves when we're under stress, when we're under pressure, and um, we can get comfortable in our own skin. And and we I talk about it enables us to get truly connected with ourselves. The more we get connected with ourselves, we can perhaps start to accept ourselves more, and our ego becomes less uh present. And that just means we can connect with others at a level of humanity, and then we can start to manage through uncertainty and volatility, and that's where all leaders are these days, you know, that's what business is presenting. So for me, it's the route through to successful leadership in this very volatile, uncertain, fragile world that we're all working and living in. But it takes it's the it takes the self-acception bit, a self-acceptance bit to get there.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, and going back to our mutual friend uh uh Trisha Riddle, um, you know, uh you're you're sort of alluding to the VUCA acronym that sort of gets used. Yes, I am. Our brains don't like it, they hate uncertainty, and so that's likely to to have us behave in ways that we wouldn't really want to behave in, but other people experiencing us responding to the external that environment factor uh and that influencing how we relate to the people around us. Um and maybe we don't even notice it because we're so so much fighting the situation that we're in that we're not maybe noticing how we're impacting other people.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah, and if we get more self-aware, we'll start to get curious about why am I reacting in that way? And what is it that's driving my need here? So, in that, um, our brains don't like uncertainty, 100% they don't. But what is it we're defending in ourselves in that place of uncertainty? So that's where where to go. And the more self-aware I'm the more in tune I get with that. And so I might not be able to stop it, but at least I'm aware of it and I can start to be consciously thinking about the impact. Of course, you know, we'll have bad days and good days, and that's why I say it's a very uh uh a construct that ebbs and flows, it's a state that ebbs and flows, but not self-aware all the time.

Interpersonal First: How Others Experience You

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah. So let's explore the model a little bit so that we can, you know, unpack some of the because you this is part of this came out of your research, right? So um you break you're breaking self-awareness down into two main strata, basically. There's an interpersonal strata and an intrapersonal strata. And let's start with the interpersonal uh uh component. I'm curious why you discussed this first in your book, actually. Um why did you not start with who am I before I how who am I who am I to other people? So um I'm just that that that was one of the curiosities I had as I was reading the book. And it's up to you now, over to you to explain uh what why the two strata and and you start with the interpersonal one, and the two elements in that that you talk about are perception of others and behaviors, and maybe you can unpack what though these mean, what you mean by these and why they're important to how uh why they're important and how you can develop them.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

So intrapersonal and interpersonal, intrapersonal known to self, interpersonal, um, how others are seeing me, which is the chicken and which is the egg. Um, you know, they could be the either way around, and the intrapersonal definitely informs the interpersonal and how how we show up. The reason I put interpersonal first was because self-awareness, as I'm talking about, is about us as leaders. So we're doing that in relation to other people, and so I that's why I put the interpersonal first, because I'm doing it with the purpose of how am I showing up as a leader? How am I showing up in the world? So that's why I put that first. But it is that that chicken and egg question, which should come first. Um, so you could argue it both ways.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Um actually, actually, your story you told about the leader actually seems to seems to hint at, you know, the starting point being when he said, I'm like, I'm super self-aware. You'd probably heard even in interacting with the team that he he might not be as self-aware as some of the stuff they might perceive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

And also actually, just it just prompted my reflection here. When I was doing my Vivor, one of the questions one of the examiners asked me was about psychopaths and narcissists who um were they self-aware or weren't they self-aware? And we've debated that in my Viver for some time, and I had to go back and do an amend around that. So I believe, and I I haven't done research in this area around psychopaths and narcissists, so I'm saying this with some caution, they are very aware from an intrapersonal perspective, but they're less concerned. I think they're aware of their interpersonal self-awareness, but they're less concerned with it. So that's another reason for putting it first that we're doing this with a positive intent there. Okay. So don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

So let's let's talk about these two elements then of perception, the perception of other people and and behaviors. So let's unpack that a little bit and what why they're so important and how any leader out there, or any of us for that matter, even a team player, can develop these.

Feedback That Helps Rather Than Hurts

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah, yeah. So perception of others, how how are others experiencing and receiving us? How do they feel in our presence? How motivated do they feel when they're with us? Now, getting a um a grasp and understanding of this is challenging, as I alluded to earlier, but as leaders, we could ask our people. I say there's two questions, and you've got you've got to ask both. And I highlight in this book is what do I do as your leader or as your team colleague that you value, that supports you, that um you um you appreciate, something like that. It could be one of those adjectives, you could put another one there. And the second question which you must ask is what do I do as a leader that irritates you, gets in the way, demotivates you, um, undermines you, um, or or what do I do that you don't appreciate? And just or how do you feel when I'm around? That's could be another simple question. But there we have to be quite brave to ask those questions because we might hear something we don't want to hear. And that's the other way. The other way of that perception of others that I feel is a little bit uh it can be fun, it can also be very painful. Um, when we're with people in our team or colleagues and they're really irritating us and we don't like them, what is it that they're doing that we don't like, or what is it they're doing that irritates us? And it they're probably, or if not almost certainly, holding a mirror up to stuff we don't like in ourselves, the shadow side of us that we're not so prepared to think about. And and that's another way of getting some thinking about perception of others as well. Um, in there 100% colour, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh and this is key because you know, as a leader, I've got to motivate my team, you know, I've got to understand am I having the impact that I'm wanting to have, or how can we work together to create the impact we want to have? Um, and then the behaviours, which we could it be easier to get a grasp over if we videoed ourselves doing a team meeting, if we videoed ourselves um doing a uh a keynote address or whatever we're doing with our team, um, if we're prepared to watch it back and watch our behaviours. And I just don't mean our body language, I mean our tone of voice, our pace, our what words are we putting emphasis on, you know, and and just watching how the other person is receiving that can be hugely uh revealing. Um, as a coach, you know, I've had to do that to get accreditation, but you know, I never had to do it as a leader, you know, so it would be interesting, you know, I think it could be really revealing. It's so painful to watch yourself back. I hate hate it, but uh it really gives you.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

That sense of what are my behaviors doing?

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Strange. I think it was on professional communications. This might shock you or horrify you, but there was a professor of communications there who had worked with multinationals and basically said that the secret to getting uh change through in an organization was to get the executives to s to be scripted and just follow the script. And even better, and in those days, remember, video wasn't as prevalent as it is today. Get them in front of a video camera, you said, and and that's all you need to do. And get them to read the script, and then that they'll kind of hold themselves accountable to the script they've just read. And that and my own experience and my own studies in psychology would suggest that that is absolute bullshit in many ways, because um because I when even when you were talking there, I was thinking the one of the interesting challenges here is that um a leader might get feedback from two people and extrapolate that out and generalize it to be the only way they're being perceived. And there must be an element of this around individual perceptions. You went you mentioned the map earlier, and we know about Korzybsky's map is not the territory, and everybody's working from their own best map that's available to them. So, in many ways, feedback from an individual is their experience of you. It isn't necessarily the experience of the other nine people on the team, isn't that right? Maybe you could talk to some of those things that I've just reflected on there. You're listening to leading people with me, Jerry Murray. My guest this week is Dr. Julia Carlin. Coming up, why other people's perceptions of us can lag behind our own development, what makes feedback useful rather than threatening, and why self-acceptance is a quiet but powerful leadership strength.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, and don't forget, I if I'm a team member, I'm receiving the team leader depending on how I'm showing up that day myself. So, you know, if I'm low in resilience or I'm a bit ill, I'm gonna have a very different experience of somebody who's feeling on top of their game and firing on all cylinders. And if you come back to me as a leader next week, when I'm now feeling on top of my game, I'm gonna experience you in a in a different way. I I also have been reflecting a lot lately that some people's perception of of one is shaped by the first time they interacted with you. And you may have developed yourself, you may have done lots of self-work, but they still will be judging you against that initial perception. And that that is also so you think, oh, I'm now showing up in this way because I've done all this self-work, I've done all this development, but they're still seeing you as they used to say there's always going to be a mismatch, and hence you're never gonna be as self-aware as you think you are, because others are gonna perceive you very differently, and also they're gonna perceive us differently depending on the environments we're in.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That would suggest to me a question around um is it useful for leaders to actually explain to their people that they're going through development and and how easy or challenging is that for a leader to let's say admit or to say, I'm actually going through development at the moment, um, and I want you to help me um pace myself through this development process and feed feedback to me. Uh am I actually improving or or or am I not, so that I can better calibrate how I'm showing up.

Intrapersonal Layers: Beliefs, Values, And Needs

SPEAKER_02 25:57

I I think it's great if leaders can do that and show that they're not perfect individuals, because that's that's the reality, they're not. And you know, that feeds into all of Brene Brown's work around vulnerability and the and the power of vulnerability. So, yes, I as long as the leaders um are clear on their boundaries for receiving the feedback and they absolutely mean it, because I think somebody just come off a program and say to their team, oh, I've just been on this program, I you know, I'm developing my self-awareness, I want you to be really open with me, and they don't actually want you to be open with them at all.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

So I think be careful for what you ask for, uh you know, and be clear on what you're asking for uh from your team so they could they bear clear on what that you want the sort of feedback you that will support you.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah. I I've seen some research on uh feedback from a neuroscience point of view, which suggests that um we we we we really don't like unsolicited feedback um from others because um because the first thing that comes up is depending on what our hippocampus and amygdala remembers from the last time we got tough feedback or whatever, there's a certain program reaction that will kick in. However, the conclusion of that particular uh situation or that particular um I think it was on a webinar I can't I came across as was that actually the most useful thing if you want to install introduce feedback in an organization is to get people to ask for feedback in a way that you know they they have to learn how to receive it and and if you people ask for it from the people that they really want to have it from, but uh understand that it's just that person's opinion, maybe, or that person's experience of you in a given moment, that that can make feedback work better than this idea you have to, you know, you just have to take the feedback. Uh, you know, that's tough. If people give you tough feedback, that's your that's your issue. Uh, or people feeling that a feedback culture means that everybody can give ever feedback to everybody, whether the other person wants it or not. I mean, what's your experience of?

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, I agree with you. Unsolicited feedback um is is unhelpful. I I also find it unhelpful when leaders say, How do you think I'm doing? How am I as your leader? It's too general. Be much more specific with the question. And I'm also saying when you get the feedback, just say thank you for sharing that way with me. I'm gonna go away and think about it, write it down uh in the rawest form and just let it settle and maybe process it with a coach or a therapist afterwards or a good quality thinking partner that's not who you can just think through. And I would say that feedback that rattles your cage and leaves you a bit bit this combobulation is probably worth really processing and thinking about it. And it's like the news, isn't it? We're bombarded with information 24-7. It's a piece of data, we can choose to ignore it if we want to, like we can choose to ignore uh a headline on the news. I just think it's probably worth just I wonder what have a wondering as to why did that person deliver that feedback? It could be uh a self-projection of that own person that they're projecting onto you. Um that so it's just worth worth thinking about, reflecting.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

There there is this concept called feed forward, which requires the person giving feedback to actually give give you something specific that you could try out instead of so it forces them to be rather than saying you irritate me as a leader, which is where do you go from that, to say when you do this, it does tend to upset me a little bit. What I what you could maybe try out is doing some do this other specific thing instead before you whatever it is you do, maybe you could do this as well. At least people can test that out. But you know, I I've been amazed in all the trainings I've done where we encourage people to give feedback, particularly things like presenting training and that, how generalized and uh yeah uh unuseful the train the feedback is. It's just like uh you know uh you you could do something better with your voice. I mean, where do you start when sometimes what they mean is you speak too quickly or something like that, yeah. But anyway, let's get into the intrapersonal um aspect of the model now, because there's quite a lot in here, and some of it we've started reflecting anyway, around uh this whole notion of well, I'll let you unpack it. So we start with the beliefs and values, perhaps, and and how important those are because they they're usually a key part of our identity, our sense of self in the first place. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what you discovered.

Bodies, States, And Reading Your Signals

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah, I I think so. The reason I did this this model uh uh very much as a visual is because it is such a complex construct that's multi-layered. I wanted people to be able to get a handle on what it might be and have access points. So, out of those components or ingredients, as I call them, you could access any of them and start pulling that apart, which will probably reveal something about the others. I like to think about those components, including beliefs and values, as a messy ball of wool. And if I start unpicking the beliefs and values component, I'll probably get some understanding of what my motivations are, about where my feelings are stemming from, or some other such thing. Beliefs and values are at the top there. I'm not I'm a qualitative researcher, not a quantitative. The reason at the top is when I said to my participants in my research, what do you think comprises self-awareness? Beliefs and values came out easier and came up the most frequently. Um I also think it does tend to drive a lot of the other things and link together. But again, which came first? So beliefs for me aren't just religious beliefs, they're also beliefs we have about how we should show up in the world, about who we are in the world. So we could have a belief like it's always important to me that I'm the best in the group, that I get the best results in the group. It's always important to me that um I am on time. Um I'm not good enough. I've got to keep proving myself, I've got to keep getting more of a but they're all the beliefs we could hold. So they could be positive and they could be um less than positive, but they could drive positive behaviour. So beliefs and then values, and it always amazes me how many people, when I say to them, so you know, what are your values? Some of the senior leaders, they'll come up with some things like honesty, integrity, but I say, what else? And so few of them have really thought about it, you know, down to maybe status, choice, um autonomy, you know, getting really granular on those because they do drive our behaviors, they drive our choices, and also they can become things that that we want to protect unconsciously when we're under stress. So that's why I started with the beliefs and values uh component. Just some of the others there. Um go on, sorry, Jerry.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

No, it's it's okay. I was just going to let you um continue with uh the next ones that you the other four.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah. So the other ones there are strengths and weaknesses. Um could be part of personality traits. So I like to think about with every strength, it could become overdone, which some people label a weakness. So I'm a very caring person, I could end up smothering other people. So it's with what frequency, with what duration, and in what context am I delivering those personality traits, those strengths and weakness strengths, which then can be perceived as a weakness. When I talk about motivations, um, what is it that motivates us, but also what are our needs? So we all have our fundamental needs of being loved, um, we all have a fundamental need of belonging, um, and we also have some needs around control. To what extent do we have them? But what other needs might we have? So, you know, relinking back when I talked about assessment centres, I have a real need to connect deeply with other individuals. Assessment centres didn't allow me to do that because they were in and out, whereas working with somebody over a period of time does. So that's where my why I ended up dropping that. Internal mental states, both our feelings and our emotions, alongside that internal thought process, that could also be our internal voice that we that some of us have going in our heads all the time. And then, really importantly, which I just feel we've become really disconnected with as we've got more online working, is what's going on in our bodies, you know, how is our body responding to the situation? What's going on beneath our head? And um, one of my mentors and coaching supervisors, Yunus Accralina, talks about how we carry our history in our body, how the shape with what we show up with, you know, are we uh sort of shrinking away, or are we, you know, here I am, look at me. You know, all of that can be shaped by our history. So getting more aware of how we're carrying ourselves, where's the tension in our body? Where are we softer, where or not, as the case may be. And that's a real been a real place that I've, as a result of my research, I've been really diving into.

Self-Connection And Leading Through Uncertainty

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, and that brings you into the area of interoception, and that that's sort of an emerging, it's a nice technical term for paying attention to what's going on within you at any moment in time. But I think paying attention is is part of it. It's uh it's being able to interpret it and understand it, and and this always comes back to uh the whole concept of state because um we we move in and out of states all the time uh as human beings, and no state is good or bad within itself, as Shakespeare said, nothing is good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. Um But it's understanding which states are when we're at our most resourceful and at our best k or most able to perform what we're trying to perform. And I I personally find that that is that is what links all this together a little bit, is like um it's okay saying, Well, I have butterflies in my stomach. What's the message? And maybe that's okay. Um, maybe it's useful to have them at this moment in time.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

And also, what why have those butterflies come up today? What is it that's important to me about this interaction I'm gonna get to what's at stake for me here? Which probably taps into a need or a motivation, it could also tap into some beliefs and values. So, you know, this is where they start to all interlink together.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah. So there's there's a huge amount, each each of these uh elements, and there's uh I think seven of them in total. Um, each of these components has their own chapter, um, with lots of little um examples from your coaching experience, etc., and then lots of little summary boxes to suggest to people uh how they could go about uh addressing these. Um the final section of your book is entitled Self-Connection: The Route to Leading Through Uncertainty. And now we mentioned that uncertainty bit a little bit earlier, but what do you mean by self-connection? And how does this help us become better leaders?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Self-connection, A, really getting to know ourselves, um, and then accepting ourselves, accepting all of who I am, the stuff I don't like, the stuff I don't don't don't like, all of that, and accepting that that's just a part of who we are. We've all got, you you said to young earlier on, we've all got the shadow side, the stuff we're less comfortable with, but accepting it. And that's important for me because when self-awareness was first written about academically in the late 60s, it was deemed to be an aversive state, so a state that created depression, anxiety, rumination. And why I feel it's better linked from a self-acceptance and self-connection perspective is we're doing it from a pace of reflection and and rather than the rumination. So if we get caught into that ruminatory, anxious state, then then we're actually in a vicious circle and we're not accepting ourselves. Um, so that that's what I mean by self-connection, really getting to know ourselves and accepting who we are as a person. Because as you've just said, using Shakespeare's quote, we're all good people, you know, at heart. We're all we're all you know human beings who deserve love and deserve to be on this world. Um, why does that mean we're better as leaders? Well, Yatunde Hoffman in her brilliant book Beyond Engagement talks about love-based organizations. And she defines love within an organization as acceptance of all of who I am, and it therefore acceptance of all of who you are. So we can't really accept our team unless we can first accept ourselves. So we're going to have dysfunction if we don't get to that place. Um, and also, as I alluded to earlier on, when I can stop my ego taking over, so I've got to be right, I've got to have all the answers as a leader, when I can let that drop away through self-acceptance and know I'm as vulnerable as the next person in the team, then actually I can say to my team, what other ideas have we got? Let's just hold this space for a moment and just think about what else could emerge. And and then I think there'll be more possibilities, there'll be more, okay, we haven't got all the answers. What's the best we can do now? And we're more like to approach it in a healthy way from a I've got to win this, I've got to, oh you know, we're gonna fail if we don't, and and it just becomes much more of a conducive environment to getting good thinking and good decisions.

A Simple Weekly Reflection Practice

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Okay, so is there anything I should have asked you about this book that I have so far forgotten or omitted to ask you about it?

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Is there anything you should have asked me? Gosh. Um I I I don't I can't think of anything off off the top of my head head, really, right now.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Okay. So I think for the for my listeners, that means that uh the rest is in the book and you have to acquire a copy of the book to to dig deeper into it.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Please do.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Um so coming to the end, Julia, uh, of our conversation. If my listeners could take away just one idea from you are not as self-aware as you think you are and experiment with it over the next few weeks or days even, what would you hope that that experiment might be? What might be some starting points for people?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, I would encourage somebody to pose a question for themselves and write that down and just now and again come back to it over the course of the week or month, if they whatever they set as their period of reflection, and just see what emerges and and and let that happen. So if they can't think of a question, I always start to say the best one to start with is why did I behave in the way I did today in that meeting? Or why am I behaving in that way this week? And just allow that to float around your unconscious and see what emerges.

How To Reach Julia And A Listener Giveaway

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Okay, that's a probably pretty extent. It sounds like a simple question. I'm pretty sure that when people ask it and maybe even journal it or whatever, they they'll start to find that it leads leads to very interesting places. Good. Okay, so how can people contact you? Because I'll put some links in the show notes, but how can people contact you? And I believe for at least one lucky listener, you are prepared to offer them a something.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah, so if they're in the UK, I'll send them a book. If they're not in the UK, I can send them a PDF of the book. So for the first person that contacts me on LinkedIn, you're gonna put a notice on LinkedIn. So to please connect with me on LinkedIn, um, or they can find me on my website, cardon-consulting.co.uk.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Okay, so Julia Carden, thanks for sharing your insights, tips, and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Oh, Jerry, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Coming up next on leading people.

Teaser: Why Coaching Beats Advice

SPEAKER_00 43:25

We have this thing called our brain. And our brain is primary function is to keep us safe. It's not to make us smart or funny. That may come later, but it's it's always going, will this hurt me? Will this hurt me? Um, and it doesn't like to feel uncomfortable. So when we try to sort things out on our own, you know, if it's a surface level and no emotions are catched, fine. You know, and AI can help us with that. But if there's something else getting in the way that we have to go deeper into our belief systems and even have We define ourselves, the brain says, No, not gonna let you do that. You know, and the metaphor I use is um, have you ever tried to tickle yourself?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

If you enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Julia Cardin about self-awareness and how leaders can't see all of themselves under pressure, then this next conversation goes one step further. Because even when we want to see more clearly, our brains resist it. Leading executive coach and author, Dr. Marcia Reynolds, explains why sustainable growth rarely happens through advice, instruction, or telling people what to do. Instead, it happens when someone creates the kind of presence that allows us to examine our thinking safely. And that someone is often a skilled coach. In this next episode, we explore why coaching isn't about fixing problems, it's about helping people see differently. Why emotional regulation sits at the heart of leadership, and why in an age of AI, human presence may become even more valuable. If Julia's episode explores self awareness as capacity in uncertainty, this conversation explores the relational side of that capacity. You won't want to miss it.