How to Coach the Person, Not the Problem

What if the real issue isn’t the problem someone brings you — but the way they are thinking about it?

Or, perhaps it's how they're behaving...

In this episode of Leading People, Gerry Murray is joined by coaching pioneer Dr Marcia Reynolds to explore a more powerful approach to coaching, leadership, and human development.

Their conversation goes well beyond formal coaching. It looks at how leaders, HR professionals, and people managers can create better conversations by listening more deeply, reflecting more skillfully, and helping others find their own insight rather than rushing to fix, advise, or solve.  

If you’ve ever wondered how to support real change in behaviour, confidence, and self-awareness — whether as a coach, a leader, or an HR partner — this episode will give you plenty to think about.

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Transcript

Welcome And Show Format

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Leading People with me, Jerry Murray. This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others. Every other week, I sit down with leading authors, researchers, and practitioners for deep dive conversations about the strategies, insights, and tools that drive personal and organizational success. And in between, I bring you one simple thing: short episodes that deliver practical insights and tips for immediate use. Whether you're here for useful tools or thought-provoking ideas, leading people is your guide to better leadership. My guest this week is Dr. Marcia Reynolds, executive coach, educator, and author of Coach the Person, Not the Problem. In our conversation, we explore what it really means to coach another human being in a deeper way, how co-regulation works, why reflective inquiry matters, what AI can and cannot replace, and how great coaches create the kind of space where people can think more clearly, feel more honestly, and see themselves differently. If you lead people, coach others, or simply want better conversations, there's a lot in this one. Dr. Marsha Reynolds, welcome to leading people.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Thank you, Jerry. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

So um you're coming in from which part of the world today?

SPEAKER_03 1:45

I'm actually in lovely Phoenix, Arizona. And weather's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Nice, nice part of the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Yeah.

From Training To Coaching Research

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yeah, I've passed on through a lot of that, you know, the that Midwest, Northwest, and down to coming down all the way from Idaho down to California area and that. And so it's a fantastic, great way to discover America, I have to say. Um so before we talk about the new edition of your book, uh please share with my listeners the journey that led you to where you are today. And were there any like epiphany moments along the way that you'd like to share that led you to this world of coaching?

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah, sure. Well, a lot of people they see me uh out in the world or all over online, and what they don't recognize is that I'm really a research nerd. I love research. And the reason I do was because I was actually dumped into uh a training department early, early, early in my first job. Um I actually was hired just to move around TV sets and film projectors, and my boss decided she wanted to get her doctorate, and she dumped the whole training department in my lap. And my first assignment was um management training. So I tried to figure out what to do and did pretty well following the manual, but I wanted to do it better. So I went and I got a second master's degree in adult learning, and that's when I was hooked. I'm like, oh, so how do people really learn and grow? And so I would apply what I learned, and it seemed to make it better, but it didn't necessarily change people's behavior over time. They would just try things and you know, go back to old behavior after a while. So I spent years and then I went on to another company and a big global tech company and running, you know, all the training. And I'd get better, but there was still, it didn't seem to last. So um it was actually the last day of my last job that somebody sent me this article about this thing called coaching. It was 1995. And I said, Yeah, yeah, I'm lucky, good timing. And I said, something's different here. And I watched a demo and I said, uh, I need to understand this. So I signed up for a coaching school and um, you know, started coaching and recognizing that, you know, teaching is telling people what to do. But here I was just sharing what I heard them say and asking questions. And it was so much more powerful. And the changes they were making were sustainable. It led me actually to get my doctorate in neural leadership and learning and and what really goes on in the brain differently when we coach than when we tell. Um, and and so I that just led me on this whole path that not only do I teach coaching all over the world, but I keep writing books about it because I keep learning more and wanting to share. And and there's still even so much more that we can learn about the brain. So I'm not sure when I'll stop. Although people are always asking me, when are you going to retire? I don't know. As long as there's more things to learn and share, I'll probably keep going because it's just fascinating to me.

Why A New Edition Now

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Great. So uh the book is called Coach the Person, not the problem. So, and it's an update. So, what inspired the update and who is it for and why now?

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah. Well, actually, the original request came from my publisher because the the first edition of Coach the Person, Not the Problem, is now in nine languages, sold 100,000 copies. It's and coaches and leaders, a lot of leaders, HR people, you know, they and I get notes every day saying, wow, this made such a difference to me. Um, and it was at the end of last year, my editor, who should have known better, he said, um, you know, we were looking at our bestsellers and and uh just wanting to know what uh who should do a new edition, and yours popped up. And I'm like, You were surprised? You're my editor, you're not supposed to be surprised. So, you know, and and I and I thought about it, what else do I have to say? And then I realized, you know, all the things, you know, the fear around AI replacing us, and what do we need to do to really utilize our human connection? Um, and all the things I've been learning that to really refine coaching skills. So they said I only needed to change 20%. I've changed at least or added a third of the book is new, and I went through every page and updated every page because there's so much that we're learning about learning that I wanted to get out there. And I'm so pleased that all these coaches I'm, you know, interacting with are like they can't wait for the second edition. I'm like, oh, okay, well, I worked hard to make it work. And honestly, um it's for all conversations that you really want to be with someone, help them learn, grow, change their mind. Um, that telling people to do something, be something different doesn't work. So it whether you're a leader or even a parent of a teenager, that using a coaching approach and really helping someone think through their dilemmas is so much better than trying to tell them what you think they should do. So I've had yeah, many people in all many different areas of life uh pick up the book.

Why We Need A Coach

SPEAKER_02 7:40

And if I'm not mistaken, um from what I've read over the last couple of years, coaching is one of the fastest growing professions in the world, I believe. And not just for people who want to learn how to be coaches, but more and more we're talking about the coach approach in just day-to-day conversations at work for leaders and managers to understand the principles of coaching. Um and as you say, uh it's interesting how maybe somebody comes to the coaching conversation thinking I need to sort out a work problem, and then they sort out something else in their life that's been simmering for I was giving a training for a couple of days in Brussels this week and uh around just day-to-day negotiation stuff. So there was a little bit of neuroscience and stuff in there. But at least two or three people in the room said, I'm not sure yet how I'm doing going to apply this at work, but I certainly have a teenage son or daughter, and I think I I'm going to get some benefit from. And one lady had had had come in and said she'd been on a one of these courses earlier, and like her relationship with her 17-year-old son had improved dramatically or something like that. So it was, it was, it's really, really powerful stuff because it's the principles uh behind coaching that we want to get at really uh in understanding it. So anybody out there who's a coach who's listening, this is a great opportunity to upgrade and in and enhance your understanding and skills. And anybody out there who's been struggling or trying to work out what this coach approach could be in the workplace, I guess we're going to get there as well. So, we why do we all need someone who is well trained in coaching if we desire personal growth?

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Well, we have this thing called uh brain. And our brain is primary function is to keep us safe. It's not to make us smart or funny. That may come later, but it's it's always going, will this hurt me? Will this hurt me? Um, and it doesn't like to feel uncomfortable. So when we try to sort things out on our own, you know, if it's a surface level and no emotions are attached, fine. And you know, and AI can help us with that. But if there's something else getting in the way that we have to go deeper into our belief systems and even how we define ourselves, the brain says, no, not gonna let you do that. You know, and the metaphor I use is um, have you ever tried to tickle yourself? You can't. The brain says, I know what you're doing, but you go up to somebody else and you just go like that and they and they start laughing, you know. And so it's the same thing. The brain, you know, uh resists uh self-ex self-exploration at anything below the surface. Um, and it requires someone outside of us, you know, and this actually came out of the early years of uh uh looking at emotional intelligence and neuroscience in the late 1990s, where um uh they started to write and say, you know, we don't have free will on our own. We need an external disruptor to make us stop and think about our thinking in a way we can't do for ourselves. So coaches, or if you're using a coaching approach, you're an external thought disruptor, you know, to where people can stop and they can look at their thoughts as if you laid them out on a table in front of them, and they can see more objectively how they're thinking. And and it shows the gaps in their logic or when they contradict themselves or when they say, I want this, and the fear comes with but and they state that, or or the word that often comes up should, who's saying should? People are making decisions based on what other people tell them to do. They don't see that until you bring their thoughts out. You know, so it doesn't require that you, you know, I that I really know how to ask the powerful question, that often it's just the reflection, the summarizing. So I hear you're saying this and this, that they go, oh, really? I said that? Oh, that doesn't make sense. That it it or it, you know, I always say breakthroughs don't have to be amazing insights. Sometimes it's just like, duh, I should know that. But they can't do that alone. So that's why coaching has taken off and using a coaching approach, because it helps people to examine and change their thinking in a way they can't do by themselves or they won't do when somebody just tells them to think differently.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

So I'm hearing a lot around so the brain's you know, primary purpose and keeping us safe and alive. It's also got a tendency for taking shortcuts and being very efficient, which is why we have lots of bias and lots of other things that help us process the world. It just doesn't like us. We're not willing to challenge those things ourselves. In some way, it it makes sense, doesn't it? Like, why would you want to challenge those aspects of your efficiency operating system, etc.? And as you say, when you when you play back what somebody just said and ask them to make meaning out of it because they haven't consciously thought about it, and all of a sudden now it they they they do. Yeah, it makes a big difference to to their understanding of what's happening in their world.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Yeah, the you know, you mentioned earlier before we had this conversation about um uh you know the the identity. And and that no way am I going to question who I think I am, because that's way uncomfortable to not be sure of who I think I am. When I wake up in the morning and before I even get out of bed, I have an idea of who I am that allows me to go about my day. So that uh that just get saying, well, it sounds as if you're identifying yourself as, you know, the the new person in the job, um, which makes you less confident, you know, or uh the outsider. Um uh, you know, the the words they use to define themselves often get in the way of who it is they want to become at their best.

What AI Cannot Do In Coaching

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Okay, so we're we're gonna we're gonna go a little bit deeper in that as the conversation as our conversation evolves. One thing that I would just like to touch on now, we'll come back into it, and you've mentioned it already very briefly there earlier on, because it's something that has become very prop prevalent in our profession, but in in everybody's life, and this is the world of AI. Um, and you know, out there the development of apps that the question that comes to mind is because I'm starting to have these conversations with other coaches, because I've seen some of the apps, and on a lot of transactional type stuff, uh they they seem to do quite well because they're they can they can they dig deep into the tool toolbox and and react. But what in your opinion, um what aspect of coaching uh can't be replicated by AI? If this conversation resonates and you're reflecting on your own leadership capacity, you might find our team leader essentials and performance accelerator programs very helpful. Both are designed to help leaders strengthen the inner skills that drive outer performance, especially in uncertain and fast-moving environments. You'll find more details at widecircle.eu. That's w-i-de, c irc-le.eu. Check out the link in the show notes.

unknown 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

In fact, please reassure all the coaches out there, Marcia. This is your chance to reassure the profession.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

The introduction to my book to the second edition was all written and new to address that issue. That absolutely um uh surface-level problem solving AI can do. Um, in entry-level coaching uh uh probably will go away. Um, and that's why coaches have to keep developing. But when you start to get into really getting beneath the surface and and the willingness to challenge, you know, AI always starts with, well, that's a really good situation you're facing, and I honor you for facing that. And, you know, they do a confirming thing. So it the willingness to challenge, but to create the emotional energy where your clients will accept your challenge, that's a human factor. So if there's any emotions attached to the dilemma, then there's other things that are going on that are beneath the surface. As you said, a belief, a bias that they're dearly holding on to because they've, you know, it's it's defined them and it's it's uncomfortable to let it go. We have to create that uh not just safety with our energy, but also our emotions will impact their willingness to go deep with us. So when I bring um my compassion, my care, my courage, my open curiosity, my emotions, since I'm the coach, my emotions then actually regulate your emotional state. And you will start to feel that care, that courage that I'm actually giving you in our relationship. And we have this emotional energy interaction throughout the whole conversation. And so I also have to, as a coach, be very skilled at maintaining that. Even if you say something that slightly throws me off, that I quickly come back to my courageous, compassionate presence that encourages you to go into those deeper, darker areas that AI can't take you there, and you definitely won't go there on your own. So, and it's not therapy. I want to be clear about that. I'm not going into way into your past and trauma, but it's again those things that are defining who I am and how the world should be, the world according to me. That um uh when we in in coaching, we start to break down those frames so you can see them and make a choice about them. But it's the energy that the platform, the connection that I create with you, that you would be even willing to go there with me. That I don't think, and certainly in my lifetime, no matter how sentient they can make AI, I don't see that being replicated.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Okay, so you mentioned, uh Marcia, uh entry-level coaching, and I'm going to interpret that as the sort of first level of the basic coaching skills. Am I correct in interpreting that way? Yeah, you say entry-level coaching. Because I have a question about this, which um an interesting conversation I've been having with various people this last few months has been in response to this constant media um let's say coverage which says entry-level jobs are most at threat. And I'm just wondering, there's a sort of paradox or something in there where how are we going to get to the advanced stage if we cannot pass through the maybe I'm maybe I'm missing something, maybe I'm getting old and I'm missing things. And and as you talked about entry-level coaching, how what will coaches need to do to because what what you what I'm hearing is that AI can do the entry-level stuff as well as a human being can. So, how can coaches out there, or anybody who wants to use coaching approach in their day-to-day, how do they get beyond that entry level and add the value that the AI cannot add?

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Well, I honestly with coaching, even at the entry level, when we're talking to somebody who may be anxious about um uh stepping into a new role, what impact they'll have, um, you know, or they have a difficult conversation coming up, that um sometimes they just need a really safe space that they know is confidential and it feels comfortable to talk. And so even new coaches can provide that in a way, again, that that AI may not be able to. But I always say there's two transformations that coaches must make. And and the first one is um just learning the coaching skills, because most of us come out of professions where we're telling people what to do, you know, and and giving advice, um, and to even let go of that, of who I am as the one who knows, in order to just be curious and open and and really listening into and receiving what your client's giving you, that's a big transformation. So this the the basic skills of coaching are important that I embed, you know, so uh, and and it will change all your conversations. Um, so even if you're not using it as a profession, it'll make you more effective in every conversation, to be more curious, not to always jump in and say what you think, you know, so that we can use the basic skills for for many things uh that require connection with people. Um, but then the next transformation, once they get that down, then it's to say, I know it and I need to let it go. You know, so then I'm just fully present with you and trust that I know enough that I will uh be listening in, listening. What is it that makes You think this is a challenge? What's stopping you from resolving it? What would you like to create that you don't have now? I know I'm doing that by being curious and getting clarity with my clients about how they see things and what they want. And then we move to resolving what's getting in the way to where they get to a point that they know what to do next. I know that. I don't have to think about it. And that's when we can really maintain the presence and the co-regulation of energies that take people even deeper. So it's it's not that coaches, I mean, you have to get through the initial stages, the basics, in order to move on. You can't skip that. And people that just call themselves a coach, even though they've never been trained, they're not really coaching, they're just giving advice, you know. And so um uh that that's a critical piece. And I still think there's pieces in there, depending on what your client needs, that you know, is still based in the the safe uh curious space we create that even initial coaches can do. So, you know, when you say um entry-level positions, but people still have to learn the entry-level skills to go into the advanced skills, but they have to stay with it and and value education and learning maybe a little bit more than they do now.

Co-Regulation And Emotional Attunement

SPEAKER_02 23:25

That's useful. I think helping people maybe reframe a little bit uh this let's call it this emerging new world that we are that's that's developing around us at the moment. Now you talk about two things in the book. You talk about you actually just mentioned one of them, but you talk about reflective inquiry and you talk about co-regulation. So um, do you want to continue with the co-regulation so people understand better what you mean by co-regulation? Because you also said there a minute ago um something like the coach can see. And you see, AI cannot see you, it can interpret the voice and the words that you're telling, and it cannot see the other person. And there's so much great information in just calibrating somebody's state of being and noticing whether it's changing or altering over a period of time in the coaching conversation, isn't that right?

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah, I mean, even you know, when we started coaching was all on the telephone, but even that, you know, the the the the emotions I brought to the conversation and to to pick up the nuances and the changes in your voice, um, you know, and really uh try to understand what what's triggering that or where are you going? Um, that, you know, it's often called attunement, that I'm tuning in to you, I'm able to tune into you. But co-regulation goes beyond just attunement, that you know, I can if I can pick up what you're giving me even beyond the words. But um, when I say co-regulate, it means that I'm using my emotional state to regulate your emotions. And the reason I can do that is that even though I'm your coach, I'm and I call myself your thinking partner, so you're gonna figure things out through my facilitation. But um I'm still the socially dominant person in our conversation. So when the brain says, okay, here's the coach, you know, so there's there's always a little bit of a power differential, you know, I'm the coach, so I'm the one that gets paid to be here, or you know, it's supposed to be making sure something happens. So because the brain still sees me as the dominant person in the conversation, um, it my emotions will impact your emotions. You know, so so you're sensing by protection, you're sensing what I'm feeling. You know, so I if I show some anxiety as the coach, you're gonna feel it. And then you will have some anxiety or even uh defensiveness. Um, but if I'm sitting here in curiosity and care and courage, and I maintain that throughout, then what you're picking up is that emotional state, which triggers you to feel the same things. So you actually, you actually are the one who's co-regulating to my emotions. You know, and that's the and that creates that energy between us, this constant energy exchange, because it goes on throughout the conversation. We don't just set it up up front, it's a constant energy exchange. So the better I am at coaching to maintain that state, no matter how you react, and maybe even yell at me, which has happened, you know, that it's like it's okay. I'm here with you and you're going through an experience. And I believe in you and the trusting, uh, I trust the coaching process that you're gonna come up with some insight that's gonna make the difference for you. So I may see that throughout, you know, and that's a critical piece. Again, AI cannot do, you know. So um, yeah, they can't go beyond just what they hear, what what's being spoken honestly, and maybe pick up some changes in tone, um, you know, and pausing. Um, but to really get into what's causing that person to stop and think and to be curious about what's coming up for them, putting things together that they've spoken that one thing they said they really wanted, but the other one seems to not have as much passion behind it. We can pick up those little shifts or big shifts, as well as um them then uh desiring to even hear what we have to say because of the emotions that I give them to use in this process.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

So a thought that might be going through some coaches' heads out there, curiosity thought, would be how much responsibility does the coach have for their client's state?

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Um well, actually, because of the way the conversation set up, quite a bit of responsibility. So, you know, I um may not direct where the conversation is gonna go, but I am responsible for maintaining that we're moving forward and the emotions that are felt. So, however, it doesn't stop me from from sharing something that I know when I say it that's gonna be a little uncomfortable for them. And that's okay because I've created a safe space with us that uh no matter how they respond, you know, and they may get angry, they may get, you know, really frustrated. I know that emotions don't last. You know, there's an intensity, um a reaction and intensity, and then it diminishes. So if I just keep holding the space and wait and sense when the emotion starts to diminish, then I can come back in and say, Would you be willing to share with me what just happened there? What just came to mind? You know, and because I've maintained that safe space, they are willing. I very rarely, and the only times they've said no was because I need to sit with it for a while first before I can even speak it. So, like, no, I'm not telling you that doesn't happen. So there's just so much in terms of the transformation process that is dependent on the emotions that we use. So, yes, I'm responsible for maintaining that emotional state and allowing you to, as my client, to dip in and out of it as you go through the learning about how you think and who you are.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

And you referred to energy earlier when you were describing the state and the interaction. And uh one of the things I've often explored with people is when we talk about rapport, and you know there's always these classic things matching, marrying all this, but actually, when you're truly in rapport, you're sharing an energy field that's comfortable for both parties. And so I guess if you if you can if you're sharing that energy field, you can take take somebody else to an emotional place where they need to go, perhaps to get the insight, and at the same time bring them back to where they can then land comfortably after that exploration. Is that your experience, Marcia?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Well, absolutely. Actually, before I even wrote the first uh coach person of the problem, I wrote a book called The Discomfort Zone that that really looked at the uh the necessity of discomfort in the learning, uh particularly of self-process, that that uh letting go of who I think I am before I can even become my best self, it there's a fog of uncertainty that's not comfortable. You know, so yes, I'm holding that energy, I'm holding that space for you to allow that exploration and transformation that doesn't necessarily feel good. You know, so I I always say I'm not here to make you feel better as a coach. I'm here to help you to see better, you know. So I know that this whole conversation we're gonna have, you're gonna have some ups and downs in your emotions as you start to recognize things. Um, and and that's okay, because I'm if I hold that energy field, you know, and I love that you use the word field because it really is that field. If I hold that, then it's almost like um a safety, safety net that you know that's there and that you'll go through this process, you know, and and even if I I've had some people say, you know, I need to think about this, you know, and that, and and we come to the end of the session where at least I say, so what does that look like? So I get a commitment that they're gonna think about it. They they still come back in a day or two then and say, okay, I I got it. Or just recently it was like we ended the conversation. I was with the client live, and as we were walking down the hallway, he's like, Okay, I get it now. You know, he just needed a little time to like tick-tock, tick tock. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

So you've taught you've taught you've taught thousands of coaches around the world. Uh and um how long and how challenging is it for coaches to to to develop the skill set you've just described around holding that space and the energy, understanding the energy in that space, and then having yeah, no knowing where those emotional boundaries might be in terms of guiding the client. How long, how long or how challenging is that for for coaches?

SPEAKER_03 33:05

I think the better word is how challenging, how long is of course going to differ. And it differs not just by person, but by culture, you know, because it is the process of okay, I have to learn the skills and get really good at them, you know. But so many people grow up in cultures and not just um by country, but by family culture, where um I have to get the A on the test, I have to do everything right, you know, and I'm saying, okay, you have to learn the skills to do that, but then you have to forget about it and not worry about it and get out of your head and don't think. And they've been um rewarded all their life for thinking. To quit thinking is a difficult process. So it really depends on how willing are you to trust that you know enough to make a difference with the client without thinking. And some people can pick that up, you know, um, fairly well. Uh people who know flow, like creative people actually, um, and but the people, especially that came up through technical fields or academics and you know, letting go of that, you know, and I know that. I mean, I was always, I grew up in a household that if I didn't get an A, something was wrong. You know, so I I always say, I do a lot of work in um Asia, you know, where it's really pushed the academic success, you know, and they're always saying, Oh, Marsha, you don't understand, especially in China where I've been teaching for 15 years. And I said, I do understand. Um, you know, uh Jewish mothers are just like Chinese mothers. So I've had a similar experience. Yeah.

Reflective Inquiry Over Clever Questions

SPEAKER_02 34:39

And now I mentioned it earlier, and I I kind of feel it might be an appropriate time to now that we're we're, you know, you're talking about the the challenge of embracing these skills and you know, getting maybe out of that A-grade um mindset that people have grown up with. You you you talk about reflective inquiry, and what is it and why is it an important conversation process uh for both coaches, the coaches, and even for leaders to to um to use. You're listening to leading people with me, Jerry Murray. My guest this week is Dr. Marsha Reynolds, executive coach and author of Coach the Person, not the problem. Coming up. Why reflective inquiry matters so much, how great coaches help people see themselves differently, and what it really means to coach the person instead of just trying to fix the issue in front of them.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Well, I think in the early years, um, and even within my own coach training, the focus was on asking questions. And and, you know, I remember arguing with a well-known coach who said, you know, really he was trying to make the transition from consulting to coaching because he really was, you know, we mucked up coaching and consulting. And he said, Nobody really wants you to sit there and ask them questions for an hour. And I said, I I agree. That's not what coaching is. You know, and that uh more and more as I started to understand what we're doing, being their thinking partner, that the use of ref of reflecting what they're saying and and and experiencing with the emotional shifts is even far more powerful than the follow-up question. That that it the better I get at catching their key words and concepts and and summarizing it concisely back to them, you know, that sometimes it's just a word that I use that they said, that they realize they said it only after I shared it, that they're like, oh, oh, right. Yeah, that's that's the problem. You know, so um reflective inquiry means it's reflective statements plus questions that make the difference. Yeah. And so uh the people often, again, that still say, Well, I don't have time and I don't know what questions to ask. It's not about questions. Just be with them and and share what you hear them saying. Just try that. Because even that helps people feel, wow, you're really listening to me, you know, and you're trying to understand me. And for a leader to do that, to stop in the hallway and just look at them and and say, okay, here's what I hear you saying, you know, is that correct? What a difference that makes to the conversation, instead of just jumping in and saying, Well, you should go try this without really listening to them.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

And this seems to unlock a little bit the title of the book, because as you were explaining that, you you said when you give that person the chance to reflect, they sometimes say, ah, that's the problem. And so people out there listening to this might be wondering, what does Marsha mean by coach the person and not the problem? And you do talk about identity um as a way to create sustainable change in behavior because a lot of coaches will come from a school that says it's all about behavior change. And I think you have something a bit deeper to talk about here. So, what is that distinction you're trying to get across here that says coach the person, not the problem? What is that sort of mistake that tends to be made uh in in focusing maybe too much on the problem?

SPEAKER_03 38:40

That's exactly it, right there. The focus on the problem. That if we're just finding uh it's I worked in the tech world for years, and we used to say you can't solve a surface level problem, you have to do a deep uh cause analysis, yeah, you know. So you're smiling. You probably heard that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

There's the whole concept of adaptive capacity and and you know, adapt, you know, adaptive problems trying to be solved with simple solutions and all sorts of stuff like that. So it's what I'm smiling about.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Right, right. And so I'm saying now we're talking about behavior, that um it's like a root cause analysis. That I'm just really needing to dig a little deep of what belief is causing you to do that, and also the belief of who you think you are that's driving you to do that. That bringing that to the surface, you know, where they really look, discover um their key motivators for their behavior. Um, and you just can't tell them that because they'll resist it. They need to discover it on their own. Um, and that that is also defining who they think they are. Bringing it to the surface allows them to look at it and to determine if that's what it is that needs to change. You know, and so I'm also giving them agency to say, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's really stopping me. That's really getting in the way. That's why I'm not doing this or I'm doing it wrong. Um, so it's it, I'm not saying the problem, we don't think about the problem. It's coaching the person's thinking in the context of their problem. You know, so it's it's it's not just to externally look at what have you tried, what's worked, what doesn't work, what are the threats, the risks, the rewards. Okay, that's external. And that's just basic problem solving. But to go into what's what is it that you see that you think is this this is a challenge? And and I want to see what you see. So I want to ask you questions about what do you mean by that? Um, what has occurred that that you think is that's making you think this is wrong? And then, you know, what's making this a challenge for you that you can't resolve on your own. I need to understand that because as I understand that, you come to understand it even better. So my attempts to clarify and see what you see helps you to clarify it for yourself as well. You know, and so that whole process of you know, looking at your thinking pattern and sharing it, looking underneath what's what's taught what's tied to that pattern helps you see your own possibilities. You know, what is it that you discovered that, okay, this is what I need, what needs to happen in order for me to solve that problem. You know, so all I am is a thinking partner. I'm not gonna tell you what to do because if I do, then if it goes bad, you'll blame me. You know, I'm I'm just there to help you think in a way you can't do on your own.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Okay, so I I came out of a conversation before we came into this one, and I had a question prepared here for you, and it's pretty actually now realized just by listening to you that it's somewhat relevant to the conversation I was having. So I now have a very personal interest in hearing an answer to this. Um because of course we have the professional coach and then we have the leaders, and you know, we're talking about the notion that uh leaders can adopt some of these skills uh and bring them into their leadership and management. And um, one of the areas that I'm a little bit interested in based on the conversation I was having earlier with this other person was this notion of sort of conflict. Um, and how can coaches or leaders best handle things like resistance or hesitation? No, these are or or maybe some heated discussions and other uncomfortable conversations that they're having or uncomfortable situations. What advice do you have for people who are experiencing you know those kinds of situations where it's not comfortable, it feels like conflict, maybe some people are overreacting, some people are passively let's say practicing some sort of passive aggression that that that people say, well, there's something going on and they just not revealing it. So, what advice do you have from your experience of coaching and from writing or upgrade updating this book that you could give any listeners out there who are interested in this?

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah. You know, that actually comes down to the basics of emotional intelligence. That um uh I'm in master of my emotions, not you. And so, whatever you're experiencing, first off, I'm not gonna make it negative. So if you get angry, frustrated, mad at me, or really sad, um, that's a human experience. You're now going through something where you're seeing different things that's causing you to react, which is actually good. So when my clients have a reaction to me, wherever on the range of emotions they are, I think it's a good thing. So I'm not going to like, uh oh, look what I did. Um, it's like, oh wow, look what I did. That's great. Because They're experiencing something new, they're seeing something new that caused that. So, again, that whole noticing within myself as quickly as I can any tenseness in my body, which is an emotional reaction, it happens in the body before the brain. That to catch that, release it, and come back to just choose two words calm and curious, uh, care and and courageous. You know, so two words that you you come into as anchors, any conversation, especially a difficult conversation, and anytime you think you're being knocked out of it to come back to it, keep that space, keep that energy field, you know, because it it diffuses them. They'll go through the emotion and then they'll it'll um it'll decrease, and then you can get back to coaching.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

So so uh if you're the person who's experiencing a person on the other end who's become very emotional with you or with a situation, uh am I hearing that you're you're you're you first of all be curious about what might be going on for them? And also you you it's you know, in a way, although we we have this contagion or or you know influence from states, um you know, how do how do I not get sucked into that um toxicity perhaps that they're creating around me? What what what skills do do coaches bring, or the coaching skills that you know about, the co-regulation, etc. How do how do we bring that into play in situations where we're experiencing that?

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Um again, it comes back to how quickly can you recognize that you just had a reaction? You know, and again, um the emotions happen in the body. So you will have a point of tension somewhere. I can't tell you where you will have it because you experience fear, anxiety, um, anger in different places than me, maybe. Um when I ask people where do you feel anger? I've had people say in their stomach, in their back. I had one woman say it's in my ears, you know. So wherever you might get tightened up or warm, notice it. And the quickest way to relieve it is um just breathe, exhale, breathe, breathe, breathe it out. And then you need to shift your emotional state. You can't just release the emotion, you have to come back to a neurological state. So instead of frustration, anger, fear, you need to come back to feeling something positive that triggers your own um uh neurochemicals and hormones to be calm and curious and courageous and and and to think through it. When we feel emotions here, we're actually uh restricting blood flow to the brain. So when we like back to, I really care about you in our minds. I'm here for you, you know, this is fascinating what you're going through, you know, and I believe that you're gonna come through. I feel those things. Then I stay calm, my brain stays open, and again, my calmness is gonna um calm you down too. You know, I my first job was actually in a psychiatric hospital, and and I remember the one of the first things I learned if somebody's having a psychotic reaction or whatever, don't try to constrain them, just offer them a cup of water. You know, not a glass and not coffee, but a cup of water because they would stop, it would stop the energy and they go, huh. And all of a sudden, all that energy just started to dissipate. So that's essentially, you know, we're thinking, okay, you need a cup of water, you know, it's to maintain that calmness, um, which calms them down too, is so critical.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I I hear echoes of the field of introsphen and extrasion and all that there. We we don't have time to go there today. Uh, there's a lot of great research into uh, you know, how we sense what's going on in our body and what messages and how the world around us is impacting what's going on in our body. And so um we probably can't get to that today. Um, I've got one or two questions left. How, how, you know, how can teaching leaders coaching skills impact the culture of a company? And what steps can companies take to begin to integrate coaching conversations just into their day-to-day interactions?

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Yeah, well, you know, I've I've helped a number of companies, and one of them just uh last year won an award for during the pandemic, a retail company that used coaching skills to keep the company alive and active and successful and their brand image good. And it was a Vietnamese company, so they had to deal with the whole hierarchy mindset, and you know, the leader tells people what to do. So it's actually better than just teaching a few leaders how to use a coaching approach to uh to listen first, to understand, as Stephen Covey said, seek to understand before you are understood. Um, to do that and then to uh help the person think through their problem um and come up with solutions together. But if you co if you teach, even if you start with just a division, you know, all the leaders know this, but you tell everybody, every employee knows what coaching is. So they know when they're being coached it's okay. Like, I'll call my leader is asking me questions now, you know, they don't think it's odd. But they see the values and they have the chance to be coached. At this company, they had a platform where even people who clean the floors could go ask for a coach. They had coaching fairs where they showed the families, here's what coaching is, you know, and so everybody knew what coaching was. And and the leaders saw the power, or they knew that they were gonna be um, their people were gonna ask them to be coached, that they uh they started using the skills and and giving people the chance to take risks and they wouldn't be punished. And all of a sudden the employees were handling customer issues so much better and on their own. They felt empowered to do that, and they could figure out problem solving better because their their leader using coaching skills helped them to analyze things, situations differently than the just telling them what to do, you know, and so it's seeped through. So, you know, it's got to start at the top. The top leaders have to promote coaching, then leaders need training and coaching skills. But then the third thing, and and and hopefully there's internal coaches that are trained. And then the third thing is educate the entire company, even with a five-minute video of what coaching is so they know um, you know, and and and see the value. And it can change, it changes all the conversations, whether it's in teams, in the hallway, um, wherever they are together, changes the quality of the conversations. And and now, you know, there's decades now of research that show the great results that companies that do this that they achieve.

Key Takeaway And How To Connect

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Okay. So getting to the end, is there anything you would have liked me to ask you that I forgot to ask you?

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Oh, that's interesting. Well, you know, one thing though, we talk about coaching, but uh does it mean you always have to coach? And like, no. You know, a leader wears merit and many hats. I'm never telling them you need to be a coach and always coach. Is that coaching is another useful tool that you will use. But there will be some times that you've tried coaching and it's time to lay down the bottom line, you know, and and there must be uh directions given and consequences. That's just, you know, there's that. Sometimes if you're giving the vision, you are giving the vision and then asking for their response. So I'm not saying you will you will coach with every conversation, but it's such a useful tool to have to help expand minds and create new possibilities. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

So if there was one big idea or takeaway you'd like to leave my listeners with today, what would that be?

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Um one of my favorite sayings is you know, they truly want you to be present more than they need you to be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

I think that's profound. I think that will give people a lot of uh room for thinking. Um so how can people contact you? Which I'll put links in the show notes for that benefit. I mean, uh websites, LinkedIn. Have you anything you'd like to offer my listeners?

SPEAKER_03 53:08

Yeah, sure. Um, well, contacting me. Um my website is uh co-visioning, one word co like co-regulation, co-visioning.com. My books are all there, and there's lots of blog posts and tips and things that are useful. Um uh I'm certainly on LinkedIn and and promoting the book. I'm active on all the different sites, but but I think I mostly connect with LinkedIn. So you had mentioned about um people uh uh uh contacting uh direct messaging after this. What is your suggestion? Like five the first five people, or I you know, I'll send you um the the first part of the book. I'll send you a download of the introduction that I said is all about you know the difference of coaching and AI.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Um okay. So I I guess let's say the first three people out there who can go right to Marcia, let's say on LinkedIn and say, hey, I just heard you on the Leading People podcast, and you said you'd send the first three people a download of part of the book so I can get a flavor of it. And um let's see how that works out. So Marcia Reynolds, thanks for sharing your insights, tips, and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Great, thank you for asking me.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Next on leading people.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

That the book will help them think about their own patterns and how to disrupt those patterns for you know more life-giving purposes. But they'll also realize that how they interact with people is affecting the people around them. You know, if we think very basically, when you walk in the room, do other people cheer up or do they slowly start leaving? You know, because you're impacting and who you are and who you have been to them in the past is impacting how they view you and the field that's being created. But now let's move to the leadership or coaching. Now we're dealing with not just the personal, we're dealing with patterns in the larger system.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Marsha Reynolds spoke in this episode about holding the space and the energy that helps insight emerge. Next time on Leading People, Alan Briskin and Mary Jelinus help us go further into that territory as we explore hidden fields, human connection, and what leaders need to notice in the spaces between people. You won't want to miss it.